By the Way . . .
Has it occurred to anyone else that the newly crowned national basketball champion not only did not finish first in its division (despite the fact that being the best team in your division would seem to be a prerequisite to being named the best team in the country) but also was swept by the N.I.T. champion during the regular season?
Yeah, this is a legitimate method for crowning a national champion!
Go 'Dawgs!
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And ...
And they say the BCS is faulty ...
by Jmac on Apr 4, 2006 8:46 AM EDT 0 recs
NATIONAL Champs?
So...I think we need to differentiate between crowning the best team in the country (which I think the BCS has done more times than not) and crowning a national champion (which is done through a tournament or other playoff-type competition). The national champion from a tournament is usually not the best team in the country.
by imarealist on Apr 4, 2006 8:59 AM EDT 0 recs
Agreed ...
I mean, can you imagine if Georgia Tech had won the title in 2004? Were they even close to being one of the top10 teams that year? How about Indiana in Mike Davis's season when they finished runner-up to Maryland?
by Jmac on
Apr 4, 2006 9:33 AM EDT
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Human factor
I wonder what would happen if the BCS went to the same format.
by Paragon SC on Apr 4, 2006 9:49 AM EDT 0 recs
Come on Kyle
All tournament formats are susceptible to the "hot streak" and you can make countless arguments about but X beat the tar out of Y during the regular season how can you call them NationalWorldEtc champs? I say in the same way that LSU and USC won national championships in the same year. It just happens and we as fans get to argue about it.
You yourself, indirectly, pointed out that the ambiguity of the whole situation is what makes it fun on PWD's blog. This shows that even a tournament format allows for that ambiguity while also using a series of on the fieldcourt results to better determine who deserves to be in that position.
As for I'm A Realists point about crowning both, I think that technically can happen. Tech didn't jump to #2 in either poll just for playing in the title game (though claiming that a team that beat UConn once, UNC twice, swept ACCT champ Maryland, ended Duke's win streak at Cameron, and finished with 28 wins isn't a top 10 team is a little silly).
I can't find a site with the numbers, but in recent years I believe that the b-ball champ was ranked high enough going into the tournament that jumping to #1 for winning it all hasn't been out of the question. Florida will test that this year though as a #10#11 coming into the tourney from the most recent poll I could find.
by JacketDan on Apr 4, 2006 10:19 AM EDT 0 recs
Just for the Record...
On an aside, there are polls in basketball? Why? Who cares? They aren't taken into consideration for tournament purposes, and they have no bearing on the national champion, so why administer any polls in such sports?
by imarealist on
Apr 4, 2006 10:42 AM EDT
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Same reason there are polls in any other sport . .
My point about the polls was that they are a way of crowning both a Tournament National Champion and giving a Best Team in the Country title. UF might jump to first, but I'm not certain they will. Wouldn't that then be pretty close to what you were saying?
by JacketDan on
Apr 4, 2006 11:07 AM EDT
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I agree
by peacedog on Apr 4, 2006 10:41 AM EDT 0 recs
All championships are not created equal
That should be the case . . . but that isn't the case. The Realist is right: basketball polls are meaningless, seeding in the men's tournament is an unreliable crap shoot, late-season hot streaks are rewarded more than consistent excellence, incongruous results abound (as they do in all playoff systems that allow "at large" or "wild card" teams that have not won championships into the mix), yet the team that wins the last game of the N.C.A.A. tournament automatically and universally is recognized as the national champion, even if the N.C.A.A. tournament champs were 1-2 against the N.I.T. champs.
That's not to say that Florida might not be the best team in the country. It's just to say that all the critics of the B.C.S./bowl/poll system in college football need to come down off of their high horses and admit that the national championship conferred by the N.C.A.A. tournament is every bit as "mythical" as that conferred by the B.C.S. Both are dependent upon winning the designated national championship game and, under college football's system, regular season games matter in determining which team advances to the title game. In college football, the championship is always decided between "No. 1 seeds."
The N.C.A.A. tournament is one of the most enjoyable spectacles in all of sports. Its entertainment value is extraordinary. It's legitimacy as a mechanism for crowning the No. 1 basketball team in the country, however, is dubious at best.
by T Kyle King on Apr 4, 2006 11:39 AM EDT 0 recs
Oops!
Sorry . . . I just got going there after a minute.
By the way, thanks go out to the respondent who was posting at the same time I was and making the same point I was making. Great minds think alike.
by T Kyle King on
Apr 4, 2006 11:44 AM EDT
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Double oops. . . .
This is getting creepy.
by T Kyle King on
Apr 4, 2006 11:45 AM EDT
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Let's look at things from a didactic perspective
So if basketball were to use a poll-driven system, who's the champ? If this isn't a valid system, why would a system similar to football's be valid?
Duke? They just lost to LSU (whom Florida beat), Florida State, UNC.
Connecticut? They lost to George Mason (whom Florida beat), as well as Villanova.
Villanova? They lost to Texas and errr... Florida.
Memphis? They lost to UCLA (whom Florida beat) and Texas.
Texas? They lost to LSU (whom Florida beat).
UCLA? You must've watched the game, right?
I have trouble seeing where a subjective system would produce anything more valid than the current objective system. It comes down to a fundamental thing that I have a problem with: the substitution of one's own (or some writer's own) perceived genius for that of objective on-field/court results. That's the problem I have with college football's system, and surely we've been through it plenty of times before.
But the question remains... if Florida isn't deserving of being the National Champion (and Lord knows I never wanted to write that they are), who is?
by LD on Apr 4, 2006 1:36 PM EDT 0 recs
Isn't it obvious?
If the criteria are head-to-head competition and winning a recognized and N.C.A.A.-sanctioned postseason single-elimination multi-conference tournament, surely the Gamecocks have as good a claim as the Gators.
Florida won the N.C.A.A. tournament. South Carolina won the N.I.T.
Florida and South Carolina met three times over the course of the season, twice during the regular season and once in the S.E.C. tournament, and the Gamecocks won two of the three series meetings.
Those are the objective results that played out on the court. Any assessment that South Carolina's tournament championship counts for less or that Florida's one win over South Carolina counted more because of when it was played is a purely subjective judgment that contradicts what occurred on the hardwood.
Seriously, though, L.D., I tried to emphasize the caveat that I'm not necessarily saying Florida isn't the best team in the country, however incongruous I may find the result that a team won the national championship without even winning its division championship . . . I'm just saying that winning the N.C.A.A. tournament ought to be a factor in making that subjective judgment, not the be-all and end-all.
If all we're determining is a tournament champion, then, by definition, the tournament suffices to decide that. If, however, we are deciding a 2005-2006 national basketball champion---which all of us seem to agree that we are---then the outcome of one game in April is, and the outcome of six games in the spring are, deserving of consideration without being inherently dispositive.
by T Kyle King on
Apr 4, 2006 2:34 PM EDT
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2005-2006 Bulldogs - Mens Basketball Champions
Forget about those other 15 losses and the one-and-done SEC Tourney.
Man, I can't wait until I forget who won the 2006 NCAA Tournament. I want to be pleasantly ignorant until I'm rudely reminded in Jacksonville in late October/early November.
By the way - finally got off my butt to register...so, there's a good chance of a few more comments soon.
Unfortunately I have a wedding to be at that forces me to miss G Day. Gosh darn App St. grads who don't respect the only oasis in the February thru August desert.
I'll be rooting for a good showing by all, but my personal loyalties lie with JoeTIII.
Have a good tailgate on the North Campus that won't see me tomorrow due to some pressing business at the toonament.
Dang - Braves just loss after a near-valiant comeback. 1-1; 160 to go.
by The Wrangler on
Apr 5, 2006 1:22 AM EDT
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Good to have you on board, Wrangler
It amazes me how these things happen; I mean, they publish these schedules well in advance. They're available on the internet and everything. (I have, on occasion, gotten into trouble with my wife by e-mailing the Georgia football schedule to newly-engaged friends and family members as a gentle reminder. I consider it a public service.)
by T Kyle King on
Apr 5, 2006 7:40 AM EDT
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objective, schmobjective
1. I don't think anyone is arguing that college football is perfect; just that its method of determining who gets a shot at the nat'l championship is far more likely to actually to be fair to the reality of the situation than is college basketball.
Polls, playoffs, whatever. Every year, a whole bunch of teams play out their regular seasons, and then we have to come up with a way to pick who is going to play for a shot at it all. In football, we pick two and only two teams and give them that shot. But this is too few! (Though it often is just right, isn't it? Did anyone else "deserve" a shot this year besides USC and Texas?) In basketball, we pick 65 teams and give them that shot. But this is too many! Off the top of your head, which system do you think is more likely to match up to reality? Which number is more likely to be close to "right" as far as who is actually deserving in a particular year? 2 or 65? To ask is to answer.
2. Obviously, it's very hard now to sit down and argue about who the best team is, given that we've already witnessed the wreckage of all the teams banging into each other. But part of the point here is that having the 65 team tournament in the first place is a stupid way to determine a champion. Obviously, given that we've already had the tournament and watched all the trains bang into one another, there is now a lot of wreckage that makes it hard to know how to vote in a poll.
But the same would happen in any other sport. If college football took the handful (1-4, probably) of truly deserving teams in any one year, stuck them in with a bunch of obviously less-deserving teams and made them all play in a big free-for-all tournament, there would be a lot of wreckage. And it would be fun! And in the end we would probably have a big mess, with no way to know who is "better" except to just give the trophy to whoever happened to win the four games at the end.
Just look at it as a matter of probability. If USC and Texas had been forced to play a 16 team tournament this year (to say nothing of 65 teams!), what are the chances that Texas would have won the national championship?
If we pretend that Texas is so good that they have a 90% chance of winning in any individual game they play (even against the top 16 teams in the country), then what are the odds that Texas will win four in a row (which is what it takes to win a 16 team tourney)?
9/10 x 9/10 x 9/10 x 9/10 = 6561/10000 = 65.61% chance.
So, a team that is so dominant that it is a 90% favorite in every game it plays would be reduced to only a 65% chance of winning it all. Why, for what? So that 12 or so obviously inferior teams can have a "shot" that the regular season has already shown that they do not deserve?
3. The fact that a system is "objective" really isn't very impressive. Flipping a coin would produce "objective" results. Every team would know what they have to do at the start of the season, etc. Or we could have all the teams just have a free-throw contest. Or we could play one-half mini games. Or we could play marathon games that are played in several parts, 40 minutes a day for five days (realistically, this would make some sense).
4. This isn't really an issue of "subjective" vs. "objective." Subjectivity and objectivity must blend. It is unavoidable. What we have right now in sports is what Hegel (following Aristotle) called the problem of having "a logic independent of content." Every year, we have certain pre-set rules that we will use to tell us how many and which teams get to have a shot at all the marbles. In college football, it's the BCS. In bball, it's the 65 team Big Dance. This is the 'logic.' But the 'content' to which we want to apply the rules is the regular season, which is forced to fit into the logic of the rules before it is ever even played!
The 'way out' is to have some sort of committe, or something, that sits down each year at the end of the regular season and puts together a playoff system tailored to that particular year. Take all the teams that are truly deserving of a shot, and only those teams, and then figure out the best way to determine a champion with that number of teams. Every sport should do this. And, ironically, college football is already closest to this (but still a LONG ways off).
But you should know that I am certifiably insane. :-)
by Xon on
Apr 4, 2006 2:45 PM EDT
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Basketball playoff
How about you take the best sixteen teams in the country and put them in four regions of four teams each. The teams will play a best 2 of 3 series to move to the next round until we have a champion. Usually, the better team will advance, and the streaky team that gets hot at the end of the year will have less of an advantage if they have to beat the same team twice.
Imagine this playoff:
South
(1) Duke vs. (4) LSU
(2) Texas vs. (3) Iowa
West
(1) Memphis vs. (4) Kansas
(2) UCLA vs. (3) Gonzaga
East
(1) UConn vs. (4) Illinois
(2) Tennessee vs. (3) North Carolina
MidWest
(1) Villanova vs. (4) Boston College
(2) Ohio State vs. (3) Florida
In my hypothetical, Florida beats Ohio State, then Boston College. UConn makes it through the East Regional, but falls at the hands of the Gators. Duke makes it through the other half of the bracket, but they too fall victim to Noah's mustache. So...the national champion gators would have beaten tOSU, Boston College, UConn, and Duke to claim the national title.
The current national champion Gators beat South Alabama, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Georgetown, Villanova, George Mason, and UCLA to claim the crown (only two of those teams would have made my hypothetical tournament).
Anyway...I don't want to change basketball. Just keep a January Madness Football Tournament out of the realm of possibility. I'll take my college football with a large helping of "No Playoff"...well maybe a four-team playoff...but no more than four.
by imarealist on Apr 4, 2006 3:50 PM EDT 0 recs
Nice work, Realist
Where the basketball tournament is concerned, I enjoy the entertainment spectacle but I am suspicious of any system of crowning a champion that sees (and seeks) so many early-round upsets.
There can be no doubt that shrinking the tournament field would increase the legitimacy of the Big Dance. From the standpoint of improving the validity of the tournament's outcome, my preference would be to do away with the conference tournaments and limit the field to regular-season conference champions.
That would preserve the significance of the regular season as a basis for admission to the field and eliminate the incongruous result of a team (like Florida) that was not the best in is division being declared the best in the nation, which makes about as much sense as saying I am the best lawyer in the state but the second-best lawyer in my office.
The Realist's seeding suggestions certainly are superior to the actual tournament field. All I would add to that is the recommendation that, if all else failed, the people and procedures used to select the women's tournament field be used in the men's bracket, as well. Year in and year out, the seeding of the women's tournament is vastly superior to that of the men's tournament.
by T Kyle King on
Apr 4, 2006 4:36 PM EDT
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Just asking...
by LD on
Apr 4, 2006 4:50 PM EDT
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Best of Three
by imarealist on
Apr 5, 2006 9:11 AM EDT
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I disagree with some of these characterizations
If, however, the question is framed as "college football's method of selection is closer to flawless than college basketball's", I strenuously disagree. Neither can produce a flawless champion. One system might approach more closely the idea one has of "the best team" - the football method. That's arguable though. As I'm certain there are many Auburn fans (and Georgia fans like myself) who think that one person's idea of "the best" is quite different from another's. But that's the point: it's just someone's opinion. Whether it's a consensus opinion or the mad ravings of some guy in a shack in the woods, it's all opinion. College football's system of selecting a champion relies more on consensus, which is not shocking to the conscience of most people. But that doesn't mean the consensus is correct.
College basketball on the other hand, does not rely solely on opinion. It relies on objective fact: did team A do what is necessary to achieve the title? "What is necessary" is primarily objective in itself. As for Xon's example of "a coin toss" is objective... well, it confuses ideas here. The point is not the method of winning or losing that is objective, as that's the case in football too. The point is that in football, assuming that winners are chosen via coin toss, the "Champion" is determined not by who won the most coin tosses, but how good they looked doing it and how strong their opponents are. That's the difference, and that's subjectivity intruding.
As for the requirement that subjectivity and objectivity "must blend", well, I half agree with it. If we assume that a method of selection is never realistically going to create a flawless and indisputable champion, yes, you have to rely on some form of subjectivity. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek to limit it's influence. What we're left with in comparing these systems is this, in my opinion:
College football selects a flawed, disputable champion based on intangibles and opinions (which likely comports more closely with conventional wisdom), while restricting entry into the competition to a limited number of participants.
College basketball selects a flawed, disputable champion based on who won the most consecutive games at the end of the year (which may be less likely to comport with conventional wisdom), while not restricting entry into the competion to any participants.
Personally, I've been proven wrong too many times by what I thought would happen and what did happen on the field to believe that opinion should govern, or that conventional wisdom is worth more than the ramblings of a sidewalk apocalyptist. Further, the little d democrat in me believes that sport, perhaps more than anywhere else, should be a meritocracy and not limited to a few well-funded, well-covered or well-traditioned (yes, that's a new word) teams. I beleive anyone should have a chance at winning a national title, and they should know what it takes to do so before the season starts. I believe that if George Mason had won the tournament, they would have deserved to claim a national title. I believe that Utah had as much a claim to a title as USC (or Auburn) did in 2004, in that nobody proved they were better than any of them. I believe that Milan High were Indiana state champs. None of these things fits within conventional wisdom or the predictive abilities of experts, but each would have been or was the result of the opportunity presented by a democratic and fair system. I'm willing to sacrifice my own sense of self-assurance in predictive abilities or have my personal opinions (which I can still have regardless of whoever is annointed champion) conflict with the t-shirts and SI commemorative covers in exchange for a level playing field.
Meanwhile, Kyle, if indeed you stand by that statement that USC is the best team because they beat Florida two out of three, you should know that USC lost 14 games this year. If losing the season series renders one team better than another, then several teams have superior claims to USC, and among them are Tennessee (who swept Florida), Kentucky (who was swept by Florida) and none other than the Georgia Bulldogs.
But, yes, seriously, what would be your subjective judgment, if the NCAA tournament were only a portion? I still think Florida has the best argument of anyone. If not them, then who?
by LD on Apr 4, 2006 4:47 PM EDT 0 recs
I don't believe South Carolina was the best team
I believe the regular season ought to matter more than it does, so the Big Chickens' loss total does matter to me. However, the value of those losses (and, for that matter, the value of particular wins) involves a subjective assessment, which is why I agree with Xon that any method of selecting a national champion (other than every team playing every other team twice, as you have noted) is going to involve a blend of objective factors (primarily, the outcomes of games) and subjective factors (primarily, the weight to be given to particular games).
Truthfully, I haven't looked at the won-lost records of all the combatants in enough detail to propose an alternative 2005-2006 champion; as I have noted repeatedly, I never said Florida wasn't legitimately the national champion, just that six wins, in and of themselves, should not entitle the Gators to an undisputed claim to the No. 1 ranking.
(By the way, I believe this is consistent with my support for a return to the traditional bowl arrangements, under which the S.E.C. champion always went to the Sugar Bowl, the Big 8 champion always went to the Orange Bowl, and the Big Ten and Pac-10 champions always went to the Sugar Bowl. An L.S.U. win in the Sugar Bowl and a U.S.C. win in the Rose Bowl each are factors to be considered in determining a champion, but victories in those bowls by themselves, without consideration of other factors such as strength of schedule, should not automatically confer a championship . . . which is why, although I support the B.C.S. as the best available alternative to a playoff, I disagree with those who claim that Louisiana State won the---rather than a---national championship in 2003.)
I don't have a particular quarrel with your claim that the Gators deserve the No. 1 ranking . . . I just want to reserve the right to argue about it. That, as you know, is one of the things I love most about sports, as they are an outlet for the informed impassioned fan to speak his mind.
As always, L.D., it's a pleasure respectfully disagreeing with you. I hope to see you on North Campus on Saturday morning.
by T Kyle King on
Apr 4, 2006 7:58 PM EDT
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