Dawg Sports: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: On Bobby in the Box Score Bar-right-arrows



Stewart Mandel is an Idiot and I Hope Uga Bites Him in the Rear End

What we have here is an interesting confluence of circumstances.

When Stewart Mandel ignorantly ripped on my alma mater, I took him to task and called him an idiot. I was not alone in assailing Mandel and, when LD offered his thoughts on the matter, Peter Bean urged his fellow bloggers to steer clear of assaults on mainstream media pundits that amounted to little more than "just noting that so-and-so is an idiot." I took the matter under advisement.

Around that same time, I shared my thoughts on Peter's high regard for Barry Bonds, provoking a small firestorm which led ultimately to an apology. The latter, in turn, produced a reader comment encouraging me to "maybe look into buying some backbone" where Peter was concerned.

At about that same point, SkiDawg1985 offered this observation:

I find it funny when bloggers and people on the street think they can do a better job at writing articles or coaching than the people who actually do it. If those people are really that good, then quit your job and become a columnist or a coach. My guess is that you will be making more money (eventually).

To that, I had a Stewart Mandel-specific response, and, shortly after I posted it, I read what Brian Cook had to allow in response to Peter Bean:
The guys who really get it on a regular basis -- Mike Freeman, Dennis Dodd, Mandel, maybe a few others -- deserve it. They aren't getting heat out of some little guy persecution complex (which I do think is responsible for 90% of the Simmons complaining), they're getting heat because they suck so badly that college football would be covered better if they evaporated and were not replaced. They get more stuff wrong than right, constantly use the most banal shtick available to lend their opinions weight without actually doing any of that research stuff, and permanently implant memes into your rival's fans that will never go away despite their total lack of validity. Who looks worse: the blogosphere for caterwauling about it or the actual employers of these guys? I dunno. I feel that every time someone points out that Stuart Mandel never writes anything worthwhile is an opportunity for someone with some power to read it, agree, and send him to prep volleyball.

Then, to cap it all off, Senator Blutarsky led me to . . . this.

So, to recap: Stewart Mandel wrongly said my alma mater isn't a national power, I offered a rebuttal, Peter Bean calmly cautioned bloggers not to go around calling national columnists idiots, a reader made a reasonable point about webloggers and professional columnists, I offered a response, another reader said I needed to do what Brian Cook just did (namely, disagree openly with Peter Bean), and Stewart Mandel reiterated his original ignorant animadversion against the University of Georgia.

I see a way to kill several birds with one stone. Let the slaughter of the avians commence thusly:

Stewart Mandel is an idiot.

No, seriously. He's Bozo the Columnist. His audition for a lead role in "Dumb and Dumber" went badly because he was overqualified. Sports Illustrated doesn't send him to cover golf because he weeps for his banished sister every time he hears the word "caddy."

How is Stewart Mandel a moron? Let me count the ways.

Below are excerpts from his latest assault upon good taste, common sense, and the English language. Mandel writes, I refute:

On Monday night, I did a search for the word "idiot" in my inbox -- it came back with 27 hits.

That should have been your first clue, Stew.
The overwhelming majority of the "hate mail" came from our friends in Georgia -- the team that touched off this whole discussion in the first place -- many of them fired up by an Atlanta Journal Constitution writer's thorough rebuttal to my argument. It included all kinds of well-researched info about all-time wins, bowl appearances and conference titles, which the readers then pasted into their own "arguments" and sent to me -- even though I specifically requested that potential hate-mailers "spare me any lists of all-time winning percentages, bowl wins, conference titles and whatnot." And why was that? Because as the very next line said -- and as Mike from Charlotte so cleverly deduced -- "being called a 'powerhouse' is more about public perception than it is reality."

In fairness, the overwhelming majority of the non-Georgia respondents had no problem grasping this concept.


I previously linked to Chip Towers's effective demolition of Mandel's sophomoric and nonsensical "point." (See, Stewie? I can use scare quotes, too!)

Towers adroitly noted that, among Division I-A teams, Georgia ranks sixth in bowl appearances and 11th in all-time victories. The Bulldogs are behind only Alabama and Tennessee in S.E.C. titles won, while Mark Richt is one of only nine coaches in Division I college football history to have won 60 or more games in his first six seasons on the sideline.

Towers also noted the national recognition garnered by the Red and Black, as evidenced by merchandise sales and program profits, as well as Coach Richt's other achievements, some of which have him breathing rarefied air alongside Bear Bryant, Vince Dooley, and Steve Spurrier.

In response to this "thorough rebuttal" filled with "well-researched info," Mandel scoffed that he had warned us from the outset that he was more interested in "public perception than [in] reality," then mocked his Peach State readers for not "grasping this concept."

We grasp the concept, Stew-pid. We just recognize that it's complete and utter crap.

[Among the] most common complaints were:

1) The inclusion of Penn State and Alabama among the "kings." True, neither of these programs have [sic.] been particularly powerful this decade (for 'Bama, longer than that). However, they built up no shortage of clout in the decades before that, and I hardly think that's evaporated nationally. Just look at the massive coverage Nick Saban's offseason in Tuscaloosa has garnered, as was the case with JoePa's "return to glory" two years ago.


As before, I take nothing away from the Crimson Tide or the Nittany Lions, both of which unquestionably are prestigious programs on the national scale, in spite of their respective woes in recent seasons.

I will even leave aside the conflict of interest question raised by LD regarding the speciousness of any argument in which a national columnist who helps shape media coverage attempts to use media coverage as evidence of prominence. This amounts to little more than claiming that a program is prestigious because he says it is . . . which, come to think of it, is essentially what you're saying when you rely on the imagined opinions of 100 fictitious Montanans as the basis for your proclamations.

Let's take the Stewmeister at his word and apply his standard with something resembling logical consistency. Alabama and Penn State went through downcycles but were able to survive them because "they built up no shortage of clout in the decades before that," which sustained them until a magical "'return to glory'" season early in the 21st century.

Uh, Stew, what do you think Georgia has done?

Quick question . . . how many teams won or shared Southeastern Conference championships between 1971 and 1982?

Two . . . Alabama and Georgia.

How many S.E.C. teams won national titles in that span?

Two . . . Alabama and Georgia.

Obviously, Coach Bryant's 'Bama teams enjoyed more national stature than Coach Dooley's 'Dawgs, and deservedly so. The Bear arguably was the greatest coach in the history of the sport and his sustained success in Tuscaloosa was remarkable.

Let's give credit where credit is due, though. From 1959 to 1982, the number of S.E.C. titles won or shared was as follows: Alabama, 12; Georgia, seven; Ole Miss, three; Tennessee, two; L.S.U., one. The Bulldogs weren't playing at the Crimson Tide's level, but, then again, neither was anyone else . . . and, in the Southeastern Conference, the Red and Black were the only team even within striking distance of Alabama during that 24-year span.

Once again, the Bear is untouchable as an icon and unparalleled in his success. In his quarter-century in Tuscaloosa, Coach Bryant won 232 games. During his own 25-year career between the hedges, Coach Dooley won 201 games. Vince wasn't on a par with Bear, but who was?

Surely a school with a storied heritage which fielded a 200-game winner as head coach as recently as 1988---six seasons after the Bear's career came to a close---deserves better than second-tier status, don't you think? Look at it this way: Paul W. Bryant won 31 more games in his 25-year career at Alabama than Vincent J. Dooley won in his 25-year career at Georgia. That means Vince was a shade over one win a year worse than the greatest coach in the history of the sport.

That ain't doing too badly. That ain't a baron; that's a king. Trust me, Mandel . . . it takes one to know one.

Georgia is perceived as being merely a regional power? Then the perception is out of whack and Mandel needs to quit rolling the ball bearings around in his hand while muttering about strawberries and yellow dye markers long enough to allow a little reality to seep into the clean, well-lit prison of his lone crackpot idea.

In the history of college football, nine teams have won the four traditional major postseason games, the Cotton, Orange, Rose, and Sugar Bowls. Those nine teams are as follows:

  1. Alabama
  2. Georgia
  3. Georgia Tech
  4. Miami (Florida)
  5. Notre Dame
  6. Ohio State
  7. Oklahoma
  8. Penn State
  9. Texas
If you add in the next-oldest bowl game, the Sun Bowl, that list of winners is whittled down to five: Alabama, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Oklahoma, and Texas.

If you add in the next-oldest bowl game after that, the Gator Bowl, it's down to four: Alabama, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and Oklahoma.

Tack on the Citrus (now Capital One) Bowl and you're left with three: Alabama, Georgia, and Georgia Tech.

Throw in the Liberty Bowl and you're stuck with the same trio. Toss in the Peach (now Chick-fil-A) Bowl and the cheese stands alone; while 'Bama has never been to a Peach Bowl and the Yellow Jackets are 0-3 in their hometown bowl game, the Bulldogs won the postseason tilt in the Georgia Dome as recently as last season.

Georgia is the only team in college football history to have won the nine oldest surviving bowl games. If it's a bowl game and the Bulldogs haven't hoisted the victory trophy there, then either it no longer exists or it didn't come into being until after 1970.

But, hey, winning every game with any history to it at all doesn't make you an elite team, right, Stewie? I guess it doesn't count for much that no other team has ever done it, huh?

In closing out his nonsensical defense of this cockamamie countdown, Mandel concluded:

In fact, while I admittedly emphasized "perception" in establishing the tiers, two readers -- Keith from Dallas and Mark Van Moer from Champaign, Ill. -- sent me a pair of links after the fact that show they're pretty steeped in reality, too. The first is a list of all-time AP poll appearances, of which the 13 "kings" all ranked among the top 17. The second one was even more validating: Over the past 40 years, the 13 kings all happen to rank among the top-14 in winning percentage.

The one outlier that sneaked in at No. 12? Yep ... Georgia.


It's official. By employing Stewart Mandel, Sports Illustrated is depriving some deserving village of its rightful idiot.

In terms of total victories won, Georgia is one of the 11 winningest programs in Division I-A college football history. In terms of winning percentage, Georgia is one of the 13 winningest programs of all time, is one of the 12 winningest programs of the last 40 years, and is the winningest S.E.C. program of the last 10 years and of the last five years. However, Georgia is not a national power.

Instead, the 'Dawgs are "[t]he one outlier." Outlier? A rational person would say winning consistently---over the last 115 years, over the last 40 years, over the last 10 years, over the last five years, and in the nine oldest existing bowl games---would be evidence of being a national power.

That, though, would be only "well-researched info" . . . it would be just "thorough rebuttal" . . . it would be mere "reality," and this is about "perception" . . . namely, the perceptions of Stewart Mandel and the 100 make-believe Montanans he had to invent in order to have any friends who didn't routinely want to pummel him with aluminum baseball bats whenever he insisted upon saying the stupidest thing he could think of and then refusing to budge in the face of, oh, I don't know, facts or something.

If, as he claims, "the overwhelming majority of the non-Georgia respondents had no problem grasping this concept," that speaks exceedingly well of Georgians.

Stewart, you're an idiot. Sit down, shut up, and let the grown-ups do the talking. You don't know the first thing about college football and you don't know jack about Georgia . . . the university or the state. Before you bother to write another asinine, insipid, ignorant column, you might want to drop by Dawg Sports (bring your dictionary, 'cause I know I write above your reading level, dipwad) and actually learn something for a change.

Check your perception at the door, you yammering goober. Around here, we'll be dealing in reality . . . like the reality that you're a nimrod.

Go 'Dawgs!

0 recs | Comment 40 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

Kyle, you forgot to mention his book!
Seriously, as a commenter at my site wrote, this is why we have blogs.

Guys like Mandel (who admits to orchestrating his mail bag commenters) and Dodd (who shamelessly edited a piece he did on Wisconsin and the BCS to remove a glaring factual error) control the terms of the debate where they publish.  So how else can they be taken to task when they produce rubbish like Mandel's "Montana test"?

by Senator Blutarsky on Aug 16, 2007 7:09 AM EDT   0 recs

About the book thing:
Corn Nation has a review of it here.

by T Kyle King on Aug 17, 2007 5:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Mandell
I believe that Stewart is actually Howie.
When you're backed in a corner and it doesn't look like you're going to make it, that's when you got to get MAD DOG MEAN!

by dawgy on Aug 16, 2007 7:42 AM EDT   0 recs

At least Howie had one moment of glory . . .
. . . playing Dr. Wayne Fiscus on "St. Elsewhere."

Howie may be a has-been, but, to paraphrase Robin Williams in "The Best of Times," Stewie is a never-was. He aspires to be a has-been.

by T Kyle King on Aug 16, 2007 1:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Outstanding response!
But didn't we share the SEC crown with Kentucky in 1976?

by NCT on Aug 16, 2007 8:44 AM EDT   0 recs

The source I consulted just listed Georgia . . .
. . . but I believe you're right that it was a two-way tie, with Georgia winning the head-to-head battle.

Of course, that was one of the seasons for which Kentucky subsequently was sanctioned, so it's possible the Wildcats were stripped of their share of the '76 title the way Florida's 1984 crown was vacated after the fact.

Does anybody know the answer to this one? If I'm wrong, I want to correct it.

by T Kyle King on Aug 16, 2007 1:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's not fair.
I don't think it's right of you to compare Stewart Mandel to Benji Compson.

Benji's writing actually exhibited flashes of insightfulness...not to mention after reading it a few times it kind of made sense.

Stewie's...well...not so much.

by Andrew on Aug 16, 2007 8:46 AM EDT   0 recs

Damn.
Just. Damn. My only critique of this post is that you missed the opportunity to paraphrase the host of the academic decathlon from Happy Gilmore (Stewart's favorite movie, by the by):

"Everyone here is dumber for having read Stewart Mandel's column. Stewart loses two points, and may God have mercy on his soul."

by MaconDawg on Aug 16, 2007 9:03 AM EDT   0 recs

Good on ya, Kyle
I'm proud to call you a friend and a fellow Bulldog.

Mainstream sportswriting these days seems to be all about deciding on a conclusion or a meme first, then massaging the facts to fit it. The prevailing philosophy seems to be "Don't confuse me with facts when I've already made up my mind" -- and Mandel's latest excuse for a column proves it.

"Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'sir' without adding 'you're making a scene.' " -- Homer Simpson

by Doug on Aug 16, 2007 10:01 AM EDT   0 recs

once again we see the wisdom of the following
"Kyle is to statistical analysis what Keith Richards was to moderate drug use."

Hamp Tanner, Hunker Down Dawg Blawg (November 18, 2005)

by Blogger who came in from the cold on Aug 16, 2007 10:12 AM EDT   0 recs

thoughts on Mandel's pecking order
I honestly don't mind that someone with a national pulpit does not believe that Georgia is a national power.  Since he specified that his hierarchy is based on his perception of national perception (and his army of imaginary Montanans), his categorization's validity speaks for itself.

What I find interesting is that, when faced with facts that show Georgia's history places it on par with his perceived "kings", he didn't pause to wonder why national perception (as he sees it) overlooks UGA.

Assuming arguendo that Mandel's perception of national perception (and yes, I'm doing that on purpose) is correct, just for the hell of it I'll offer some possible explanations.

During football's first 60-70 years, the national attention given to Southern collegiate football was undeservedly low.  During that time span, when Georgia's football program ranged from very strong to occasionally stellar (sure, with some mediocre stretches thrown in), we were overshadowed by Tech and, to some extent, Tennessee.  During the next 30 or so years, the South began to receive its due, but OMG Bama! (not to mention spurts of glory from the likes of Ole Miss and Auburn, alongside which the Herschel years might appear comparable but just a little bit better from a Midwesterner's or Montanans point of view).  This was followed by 15 or so years (I'm being very rough with my time-frames here) of Goff, Florida, FSU, and Miami.  By this time, I think it's safe to say that no one was paying any less attention to the South as they were to the Midwest, Plains, and West Coast.  To said Midwesterner or Montanan, the last ten years might make Georgia look like a relative newcomer.

[To this I will add my personal observation that, among Mandel's "kings", FSU is clearly a newcomer, as my first specific recollection of the Seminoles as anything but a mere blip on the radar was when I was getting ready to board a Redcoat Band bus en route to Orlando in 1984 for an exciting 17-17 tie.  Who knew?]

All this may make me appear to be a Mandel apologist, and I'm not.  I think when presented with facts, Mandel should have examined why national perception (remember, arguendo) is the way it is -- not because he owes Georgia or its fans anything (UGA may not be the only school with a comparable record that gets overlooked by the Mythical Montanans), but because honest coverage of the pecking order in the "national collegiate football landscape" requires an answer to the question.

by NCT on Aug 16, 2007 10:42 AM EDT   0 recs

This morning, I talked to College Buddy . . .
. . . and he took much the same view. Mandel may be right about the commonly-held perception of certain teams, but, when the facts about particular teams don't square with the manner in which they are viewed, some deeper probing is in order.

Sunday Morning Quarterback does an excellent job of addressing this, showing side-by-side comparisons of particular teams' recent achievements without providing the names of the teams and asking which is the more impressive. In the case of, e.g., Cincinnati and South Florida, the divergence of the perception from the reality can be eye-opening.

Clearly, some of this is, as LD points out, media-driven. Another valid point made by College Buddy is that much of this perception is driven by a younger demographic whose frame of reference is markedly different.

This year's entering freshman class at the University of Georgia not only has no memory of Vince Dooley as the head coach of the Bulldogs, they weren't born until the year Ray Goff succeeded him at the helm. Those who didn't start following football until they were 12 years old have no memory of anyone other than Mark Richt ever being the head coach of the Bulldogs.

Obviously, this can have an enormous impact on the ways in which particular teams are viewed. Georgia has roughly a .500 record against Florida over the course of my lifetime, which gives me a very different perspective from that of someone who does not remember Florida before Steve Spurrier.

I don't necessarily fault Stewart Mandel for reporting what he perceives to be the perception, although it is hard to imagine a more ephemeral method of measurement than that. (If, as he essentially admits, he has no particular concrete basis for his views---or, at least, is indifferent to the question whether he has such a basis---he's more or less admitting that this is just his subjective opinion. Since he doesn't have any particular credentials that the average informed fan doesn't have, why should we care about his opinions just because he writes a column for Sports Illustrated?)

I fault him for shrugging off an avalanche of facts which prove the perception wrong and offering no retort more substantial than, "And yet, the perception doesn't match the facts." For a guy who's supposed to offer news and/or insight, he seems determined not to put forth enough effort to provide either, when he could (and should) use this as a casting-off point for asking, "Why aren't particular programs perceived as being as good/bad as they really are?"

That might make for an interesting column and a worthwhile discussion, but it would require actual effort more strenuous than asking himself, "What unsubstantiated opinions do I have that I could share to stir the pot and generate more page views? Say, those S.E.C. types seem particularly impassioned and we've messed with Alabama enough already after the Nick Saban hire. . . . Hey! Why don't we see if we can get Bulldog Nation in an uproar?"

It's a cheap and lazy tactic, and I regret that folks like me have demonstrated to him that it works, but Brian Cook and LD are right: Stewart Mandel has a platform from which he is able to exert some degree of influence, so counteracting his effect is crucial.

It's just a shame that, at a time when beat reporters and bloggers are starting to recognize the need for a symbiotic relationship between the blogosphere and the mainstream media (as evidenced by the discussion with the guest on this past Tuesday's edition of "EDSBS Radio"), pundits like Stewart Mandel are stirring the pot in a pathetic effort to prolong their own fading relevance.

by T Kyle King on Aug 16, 2007 1:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Put another way . . .
. . . this year's entering freshmen at the University of Georgia had not yet been born the first time I found myself wandering around Memorial Hall with a golf pencil in one hand and an Opstar in the other while reading course numbers printed on green-and-white bar paper with a daisy-wheel printer.

by T Kyle King on Aug 16, 2007 7:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Opstar!
Good grief!  Remember dropping your for into the magic slot and waiting for your official schedule to print?  And hey, that was a dreamy system compared to the one my parents have described.  But then, I think they paid something like 87 cents in tuition and fees combined.

by NCT on Aug 16, 2007 7:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, I remember . . .
. . . sitting there in those hard plastic chairs waiting for the schedules to print and hoping I didn't get a yellow card.

Also, I remember the time someone dropped in a bogus schedule for "Mike Hunt" and Bruce Shutt or somebody called out the name, like, 20 times.

Wow, that was 100 years ago, wasn't it?

by T Kyle King on Aug 16, 2007 8:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Get back
If you ever saw the Howard Stern movie, you will recall a part where they break down ratings with the angry radio boss. It goes something like this:
"The average Stern fan listens daily for 1 hour. The average Stern hater listens for 2 hours daily. Both cite the top reason for why they listen as: 'to see what he will say next.'"
It's pretty evident that Stewart is an idiot because when faced with facts, he wants to act childishly and say, "No, I want it my way!" The best way to get rid of Mandel is to:
  1. not read his articles- SI and Yahoo track "hits" to articles and the less reading he gets, the more likely they will add another flunky instead of him to their columnist.
  2. cancel you SI subscriptions and include a letter to the magazine citing poor journalism with little real coverage.
It may not change anything, but at this point I think we can all agree that he is an idiot and that isn't likely to change anytime soon.

by fotodog on Aug 16, 2007 11:17 AM EDT   0 recs

Absofuckinglutely.
A great and terrible rant, sir. I resisted saying anything about your "backbone" as far as the Bean situation went, not wanting to pile on more than you already had. But hell, does the man dine with Christ? I thought your posting could have been more complimentary only if you'd openly proffessed a desire to sleep with him. Well done.

by randomterrace on Aug 16, 2007 12:08 PM EDT   0 recs

Let me make it perfectly clear:
I have the utmost respect for Peter Bean, but, inasmuch as he's a guy, he ain't my type.

Thanks, though.

by T Kyle King on Aug 16, 2007 1:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

mmm
NCT - yes.  His unwillingness to examine the issue as you state it is what bothers me the most.  His arguments (such as they are) are quickly and easily dismissed.  

His unwillingness to take the next step is unfortunate.  Even if he does take the next step, he probably won't take the important one after, but I'm a reasonable man and I'd take the moderate victory here.  

by peacedog on Aug 16, 2007 12:44 PM EDT   0 recs

I've got nothing
I can't find a list of conference titles by year anywhere other than College Football Data Warehouse (which is generally excellent), or Wikipedia, which is just getting it from CFDW.

I can't determine if the SEC is not recognizing the 76 split title or not.  CFDW lists it, FWIW, and they do make a note of Florida's vacation of the 84 title.

The SEC sucks buffalo nut for not having an excellent place where I can reference this.  That I have yet found, anyway.  

by peacedog on Aug 16, 2007 2:43 PM EDT   0 recs

'76 title
According to this Web site, Georgia went 5-1 in the SEC in 1976, Alabama went 5-2, and Mississippi State, Kentucky, and Florida all went 4-2. Georgia beat all those teams (with the exception of MSU, whom they didn't play), so it seems to me that Georgia would've won that title outright.
"Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'sir' without adding 'you're making a scene.' " -- Homer Simpson

by Doug on Aug 16, 2007 2:53 PM EDT   0 recs

Beautiful!
Hear, hear! Great piece of work.

by Dawg Fanatic on Aug 16, 2007 3:58 PM EDT   0 recs

'76 title
According to the SEC website, Kentucky was 5-1 in '76, just like UGA (with the benefit of a forfeit imposed on Mississippi State by the NCAA and the Conference.  See secsports.com's conference standings for the 1970s.

Cf. secsports.com's conference standings for the 1980s, where UF's 1984 vacated championship is noted.

by NCT on Aug 16, 2007 4:00 PM EDT   0 recs

NCT. . .
I have no idea where you found that, but I still can't get to it on the site by normal navigation.

Anyhoo, Kentucky got their 5-1 via an MSU forfeit.  And we beat them according to the warehouse.  So there's some fun history.  

by peacedog on Aug 16, 2007 4:13 PM EDT   0 recs

SEC website
Yeah, our conference website kinda bites when it comes to this kind of research.  It wasn't easy, but I finally found it.  Of course, what I was looking for was a list of conference football champions.

Anyway, FWIW, main page - football link - waaay down the middle of the page is a list of links under the heading "Statistics & Records" -- Record Book -- All-Time Standings.

Also, the Wildcats' official website claims a 1976 football championship.  I don't think the conference would let them get away with that if it weren't official.

by NCT on Aug 16, 2007 4:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

re: SEC website
I think you must be right on the official part.  They clearly hadn't research tie-breakers yet.  And thanks for the "where's that damn link" heads up.  

by peacedog on Aug 16, 2007 4:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Curiouser and curiouser
The ESPN College Football Encyclopedia credits Kentucky with two S.E.C. championships, one shared and one outright, but does not list which ones they were.

The Worldwide Leader's comprehensive volume also shows that the Wildcats went 8-4 on the field in 1976, losing 14-7 to Mississippi State. However, as NCT noted, M.S.U. had to forfeit that game (as well as its other eight wins that year).

Kentucky's only unbeaten conference campaign came in 1977, when the 'Cats went 10-1 overall and 6-0 in league play but did not attend a bowl game because the Blue and White were on probation. Alabama, which went 7-0 in conference games, is listed as that year's S.E.C. champion.

The 2004 Georgia football media guide lists Kentucky as having won one S.E.C. title, in 1950.

Still, assuming NCT is right that Kentucky would be forced to put a Florida-esque "first in the S.E.C." on its website in lieu of "S.E.C. champions," I'm proceeding from the understanding that, thanks to the Mississippi State forfeit, Kentucky technically shared the conference crown with the 'Dawgs, by virtue of the fact that the 4-2 record the 'Cats earned by cheating was improved to 5-1 by virtue of M.S.U.'s cheating.

For the record, in 1976, Ray Goff and the Red and Black beat the Wildcats by a 31-7 margin in Lexington. I'm just saying.

With the correction, the piece should read:

Quick question . . . how many teams won or shared Southeastern Conference championships between 1971 and 1982?

Three . . . Alabama, Georgia, and Kentucky.

How many S.E.C. teams won national titles in that span?

Two . . . Alabama and Georgia.

Obviously, Coach Bryant's 'Bama teams enjoyed more national stature than Coach Dooley's 'Dawgs, and deservedly so. The Bear arguably was the greatest coach in the history of the sport and his sustained success in Tuscaloosa was remarkable.

Let's give credit where credit is due, though. From 1959 to 1982, the number of S.E.C. titles won or shared was as follows: Alabama, 12; Georgia, seven; Ole Miss, three; Tennessee, two; Kentucky, one; L.S.U., one. The Bulldogs weren't playing at the Crimson Tide's level, but, then again, neither was anyone else . . . and, in the Southeastern Conference, the Red and Black were the only team even within striking distance of Alabama during that 24-year span.


Even crediting Kentucky with a piece of the league title, the point remains the same: Georgia was second only to Alabama during that span and no one else was even close to the Bulldogs. In fact, with the Wildcats' title added in, the breakdown is this:
  1. Alabama - 12 S.E.C. titles
  2. Georgia - 7 S.E.C. titles
  3. Rest of conference - 7 S.E.C. titles combined
Obviously, not even the most rabid partisan in Bulldog Nation could claim that Georgia's overall tradition matches the Crimson Tide's. After Alabama, though, there's no team in the league that gets to look down on the 'Dawgs.

by T Kyle King on Aug 16, 2007 6:22 PM EDT   0 recs

Interesting years you use there...
...'59 to '82.  Did you just want to avoid using Auburn's name at all, since those years allow you to avoid saying Auburn won an SEC title? (1st-'57, 2nd- '83).  

Something to point out here:

"After Alabama, though, there's no team in the league that gets to look down on the 'Dawgs."

I'd put UT and UGA about even- UT has won 16 conference titles (UGA 14), and has a 19-15-2 record against the Dawgs.  You really don't make much of a case for claiming superiority over the Vols, except for the fact that UGA has a Rose Bowl win and UT doesn't (0-2).  But the 'Vols are certainly elite, as well.

But I won't argue against your premise- that UGA's football tradition/accomplishments put it in the "elite," regardless of what public perception may be (or some people in Montana, if that's what one uses as "public perception").  The Dawgs have enjoyed consistent success over time, and have many accomplishments in the bowls as well.  

Auburn only has 6 SEC titles and one MNC, so I think Stewart put us where we need to be, even if he had used a more legit formula in determining his "rankings." 2-3 more SEC's and another NC will put up at the top (we already have winning records against every SEC except LSU and Bama).

Another note on the bowls- Auburn has won all of the big 4 bowls where they've received an invite, although I'd like to think that Auburn could have won the Rose Bowl in either 1913 or 1914 seasons had there had been one, based on Auburn's performance.  Combined scoring: AU 417 Competition 13- the only non-win?  To UGA in 1914- a 0-0 tie (Auburn did not give up ONE POINT that year).  We've also won all of the other bowls you list (1 Sun, 4 Gator, 2 Citrus/Capital One, 1 Liberty, 1 Peach).

by ContrarianAUFan on Aug 17, 2007 1:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

As I tried to make clear . . .
. . . I wasn't taking anything away from any other team; rather, I was stating a case for Georgia.

Those years were useful for illustrative purposes, but I wasn't trying to omit Auburn or any other particular school. Obviously, the 1983 Georgia-Auburn game (a 13-7 victory for the Plainsmen between the hedges) signaled a changing of the guard in the Southeastern Conference, as the team that had won three straight S.E.C. titles gave way to the team that would dominate the rest of the decade before the torch passed to the Gators in 1990.

There is no denying that the 'Dawgs wandered in the wilderness for most of the 20 years after 1982, although there were some good teams in there (10-1-1 in 1983, 10-2 in 1992, 10-2 in 1997). However, since Stewart Mandel has stated his premise that a team with sufficient history can go through a significant downcycle and come out of it all right, I believe the standard he applies (fairly) to Alabama and Penn State ought to apply to Georgia, as well.

The matter of the bowl wins is merely one of a series of factors and I do not hold it against the teams that have not won all of the historic "big four." (Michigan, for instance, is the winningest program in college football history, but, because the Big Ten did not allow its member institutions to attend bowl games other than the Tournament of Roses until the early '70s, it has had fewer opportunities to appear in some of the major bowls.)

My point was simply that, in the first 100 years of the history of college football (1869-1968), numerous bowls were established, many of which survive to this day, yet only one team has won every one of them. That has to count for something in any fair assessment of a squad's national stature.

Finally, I would agree that Georgia's and Tennessee's respective historical achievements work out about evenly. I do not object to the Volunteers' inclusion among the elite, as that is where I also would place them, but I believe Mandel's reason for drawing a distinction between the two---that mythical Montanans might not recognize a red helmet with an oval "G," but they'd recognize the checkerboard end zones in Knoxville---is just plain silly. Is it really a point against my alma mater that the Redcoat Band has taken the time to learn more than one song?

At the end of the day, I take this as a given: the four most accomplished programs in college football history are, in alphabetical order, Alabama, Michigan, Notre Dame, and Southern California. After that, I believe many schools may put forth compelling arguments for No. 5. Nebraska, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, and others all have legitimate cases for their inclusion in the top five and certainly for inclusion in the top 10 or 12 programs historically.

My point was not to degrade any other team's claim, but to note that, once you get past the Crimson Tide, the Fighting Irish, the Trojans, and the Wolverines, the case for Georgia is as good as the case for any other team and any list of elite programs, either presently or historically, which does not include the Bulldogs is, quite frankly, a bad list.

This, though, is exactly the sort of discussion in which Stewart Mandel ought to be engaging, asking, "What teams are regarded highly, and why, and how does the perception match or diverge from the reality, and why?" That, though, would require him to do research, listen to contrary opinions, raise questions, evaluate arguments, and correct his own errors . . . in short, it would require him to take part in the sort of conversation we are having right here. We amateur fans seem perfectly capable of that; I wonder why a professional national college football writer employed by a major and influential media outlet cannot?

All right, lunch break's over . . . back to work.

by T Kyle King on Aug 17, 2007 1:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Auburn thing was a light-hearted jab.
I figured what you were trying to do was pick as large of group of consecutive years with as few SEC winners as possible, while at the same time, highlighting Georgia as a power in that time, and you did well there.  And I agree with you completely on UGA's case for elite status being as good as anyone else except the 4 you mentioned (although fans of say, OU may point to NC's as separating the 2 teams).  

Mandel also mentions Peyton Manning contributing to him having UT as a "King," but Manning didn't win a NC- a well-paid Tee Martin did that (google "Wayne D Rowe" for more info).  It just goes back to what the rankings are- a popularity contest.

by ContrarianAUFan on Aug 17, 2007 2:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Manning
Yeah, I noticed Mandel's Peyton reference.  As far as I'm concerned (and at some point, y'all are going to start thinking I'm 132 years old), General Neyland's reputation means more to Tennessee's standing in the football universe than Peyton Manning's.

by NCT on Aug 17, 2007 3:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

To clarify, Kyle
I didn't say bloggers need to shy away from media criticism. I said they need to criticize media thoughtfully. In my original post, the "thoughtful" part is linked to your outstanding ESPN piece.

And though I know what you're doing with this post, I feel compelled to note - even if just for emphasis - that I have no problem with bloggers pointing out that someone like Stewart Mandel is an idiot. Rather, I hope that, when they do, they do so like you just did. Really damn well.

It's the posts which don't actually refute anything, but just say that MSM is Teh Suxorz that have outlived their usefulness.

(Great post.)

PB at BON

by HornsFan on Aug 17, 2007 2:04 AM EDT   0 recs

Yeah, I know, man
Truthfully, I'd have written this response to Stewart Mandel anyway, but, in light of your recent post and the utterly unrelated "backbone" comment left here at Dawg Sports, I thought it was a good opportunity to solve a few problems of perception---both a reader's and Mandel's---in one fell swoop. (Of course, now I'm being nice to you, which probably means that reader now thinks he was right about me, so thanks a heck of a lot, pal.)

I have to say, though, that there is a strong visceral satisfaction to teeing off on a guy like Mandel, who's made a career out of being an oaf. I think we're at the point where the division of labor is starting to be fleshed out a bit better and we need to collaborate and cooperate with the guys in the mainstream media who truly are "professional," and not just in the sense that they get a paycheck for writing about sports.

David Ching is one good example. Tim Griffin is another. If these guys' jobs were eliminated, bloggers couldn't take their places. They have access we don't have, skills we don't possess, and the ability to use their access and skills to gather information we couldn't collect.

Bulldog fans are well-represented in the blogosphere, but none of us could replace David Ching, who provides detail and depth in a way only a conscientious beat reporter can. We in the blogosphere need guys like that doing what they do and our relationship with them should be respectful rather than antagonistic.

It's the punditocracy that has outlived its usefulness. The guys who have no special expertise the rest of us didn't get just by watching a bunch of football when we were growing up, whose opinions aren't based on anything like the level of research that a Brian Cook or a Matt Hinton puts into his weblog on a daily basis, who don't even deserve the respect we would give to an impassioned fan of a rival team for his dedication, are the ones for whom I have no use. It's the guys who have nothing original, useful, or informative to say, who persist in the business by being outrageous (Stewart Mandel) or loud (Colin Cowherd) whose day is at an end. The earlier commenter who mentioned Howard Stern's success was right on point.

We're at the point where all of our media criticism needs to be as refined as LD's. Scott Van Pelt got the ball rolling with his interview of Will Leitch. Where we need to go from here is to make it clear that we're not engaging in knee-jerk ESPN-bashing, both because that's as cheap and lazy as Mandel's mythical Montanans and because the Worldwide Leader does provide many benefits, up to and including this year's season opener between Georgia and Oklahoma State.

We need to make it clearer that we have no problem with Jeremy Schaap's genuine investigative journalism, Bob Ley's in-depth examination of issues on "Outside the Lines," or Ron Jaworski's detailed breakdowns on "NFL Matchup." This involves actual sports reporting and analysis, and it was what once made ESPN great.

What we're sick of is "sportstainment" like "Who's Now" and "Around the Horn," talk radio show hosts who substitute sarcasm and volume for actual content, and columnists who seem determined to defend baseless theses because it's easier to get page views by enraging a fan base needlessly and wrongly than by engaging in a thoughtful discussion . . . or so Stewie thinks. Given what's been happening with our site traffic here at Dawg Sports lately, I strongly dispute the proposition that you can't comment intelligently on college football and still get readers.

We're not here to replace the mainstream news media, nor could we if we tried. Putting bozos like Stewart Mandel out of business, though, would (as Brian says) be to everyone's benefit. If, instead of insulting my intelligence and the institution which informed that intelligence with education, Stewart Mandel were asking me if I wanted fries with that, college football coverage would be improved, even though I'm sure that bozo would mess up my drive-through order.

Still, that's a small price to pay for quality college football coverage.

by T Kyle King on Aug 17, 2007 8:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

National Power? How about INTERNATIONAL
Kyle,

I just happen to be in South Korea this week for temporary duty (Army).  I was checking up on the status of UGA and preparations for the season when I checked out your blog.  I nearly fell out of my seat laughing.  Why, Stewart Madel was right in that UGA is not a National power but indeed an INTERNATIONAL power.  He needs to take a trip over here and check out the GEORGIA license plates in the windows of Taxi's, Buses, etc. to realize that maybe (though I don't believe it) 100 Montanans can't recognize a UGA helmet but South Koreans sure as heck can.  I'm sure that it is because of a recent Super Bowl MVP and UGA Alum, Hines Ward.  Who, by the way has numerous posters in store front windows over here also.

by RobDawg01 on Aug 17, 2007 3:04 AM EDT   0 recs

That's good to know, Rob
I hadn't thought about it from an international angle, although that's a good way of looking at it.

After all, it isn't as though anybody was unfurling some other school's flag in Baghdad:

Thanks for bringing up a really good point, Rob. Be safe while you're overseas. We want all our soldiers and sailors to come home safely.

by T Kyle King on Aug 17, 2007 8:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Rob
You should definitely hook us up with some photos of stuff like that. If you can email or post them let us know.

Stay safe & Thanks.

by fotodog on Aug 17, 2007 9:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Great idea, fotodog!
Rob, if you have a digital photo or two of the Georgia stuff in South Korea, e-mail it to me at dawgsports@gmail.com and I'll post it at the site.

Thanks for suggesting that, fotodog.

by T Kyle King on Aug 17, 2007 9:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

South Korea
Unfortunately, I fly for home today and thanks for the comments regarding soldiers - it means alot.  However, I return next Saturday (yes, my body will hate me) and I will bring a camera for the pics.  More to follow...

by RobDawg01 on Aug 17, 2007 9:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Cool!
Thanks. Be safe while you're traveling (in both directions).

I'll look forward to receiving actual photographic evidence with which to rebut Stewart Mandel, in case he's a visual learner.

by T Kyle King on Aug 17, 2007 9:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hines Ward
There have been news stories over here recently about Ward's activities in Korea (his mother's Korean).  He's done some great work over there in support of efforts to reduce discrimination against mixed-race children, including dropping a huge wad of cash (7 figures, I think) to fund programs to further efforts to help such kids there.

by NCT on Aug 17, 2007 8:20 AM EDT   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation community devoted to the Georgia Bulldogs.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Images_small
Behold Uga VII!
Avatar_small
Fantasy Football (Public and Private), Pickem Leagues, Confidence pools, etc... Good site
Will_queen_photo_small
On Fathers, Sons, and College Football
Small
What's the Deal?
Millers_crossing
Mayor, you may have lost your title
Millers_crossing
Which of these teams will reemerge as national contenders?
100_0141_small
Marcus Howard is loved in the pro's
Small
Georgia bar in LA???
36413436t_small
ASU Tix in Hand; You East Coasters Will Have them Today or Tomorrow
Uga_small
Sturdivant Injured?  NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Managers

Beard_47_series_wins_and_42_points_in_2007_small T Kyle King

ad

Site Meter