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Have I Given the Fighting Irish Their Due?

When casting this week's BlogPoll ballot, I had this to say about Notre Dame:

If Charlie Weis is such a coaching genius, why is it that, over the course of this season, he has barely survived tussles with such mediocre lightweights as Chan Gailey, John L. Smith, and Karl Dorrell? If Georgia Tech, Michigan State, and U.C.L.A. had head football coaches who exhibited mere competence, Notre Dame would have four losses right now. The 2006 Fighting Irish are the most overrated squad to come out of South Bend since the 2005 Golden Domers.

Unsurprisingly, this drew a response from the Rakes of Mallow, the fine fellows behind the MaxwellPundit award, who also happen to be Notre Dame fans. Wrote the Rakes:
I love the use of the words "would" and "should" in relation to college football. . . . Yes, Notre Dame probably "should" have lost four games already this season, but whether that be total incompetence from the other sideline or, I don't know, Notre Dame making plays when it counts, they haven't. Just to point at Kyle's team, the Georgia Bulldogs, they probably "should" have lost to Colorado and Mississippi State - teams that have combined to be God awful this year - at home, and if a hold on a punt block here or deep ball there go the other way, they might have lost at Ole Miss. Then again, if a couple of balls don't get tipped and the defense can get one break to go their way, UGA "would" have possibly beaten Rocky Top and not been in such a distraught state they lost to Vanderbilt the following game.

On the whole, this is a fair analysis, although some nitpicking is necessary for purposes of clarification. The Rakes cleverly sneaked the weasel word "should" into their retort, conflating it with the word "would" in a misleading manner.

For the record, I never used the word "should," which is an airy attempt to arrive at the way things ought to be in the sort of perfect world envisioned by George Bernard Shaw or Bobby Kennedy but not expected by flinty realists like Lord Falkland and the Founding Fathers; I used the word "would," which is a concrete expression of the course events were almost certain to have taken had a single defined variable been altered.

Georgia probably should have lost some games, much as the Rakes say the 'Dawgs should have . . . but no one can claim that, say, Dan Hawkins or Sylvester Croom cost his team the game due to his lack of coaching acumen. By contrast, I find it difficult to believe that even the most devoted Fighting Irish fan could argue with a straight face that the outcome of the Michigan State game was the result of Charlie Weis's greatness rather than John L. Smith's incompetence.

Was it Coach Weis who called for the Spartans' quarterback to hit an Irish defender in the hands with the pass that sealed the deal?

Charlie Weis is a good coach and I have never suggested that he isn't. I have, however, questioned whether a man whose most noteworthy career wins came against Navy last year and against Georgia Tech this year truly is deserving of all of the accolades that have come his way.

My assertion was a simple one: Notre Dame was down against Georgia Tech, Michigan State, and U.C.L.A. teams the Fighting Irish were expected to defeat handily. The Golden Domers came back to win, for which they deserve and received credit, but surely it is not unreasonable to suggest that some of Coach Weis's luster must be tarnished ever so slightly by the fact that he found himself on the ropes when matching wits with Chan Gailey, John L. Smith, and Karl Dorrell, whom no one regards as coaches in Charlie Weis's league.

I believe it is fair to say that, had the Yellow Jackets, the Bruins, or (especially) the Spartans been coached by a man with the abilities of, for instance, Vanderbilt's Bobby Johnson, the Fighting Irish would have lost those games. I suppose reasonable college football fans may differ upon this point, but, since Notre Dame quite clearly benefited from a "quality loss" to U.S.C. last year, should it really be so controversial to punish the Golden Domers for unimpressive victories this year?

The Rakes point to the Bulldogs as an example of a team that has played several games that might well have gone the other way. This is a fair point, which deserves to be examined in greater detail.

After their 34-0 win over U.A.B., I ranked the Red and Black 10th on my BlogPoll ballot. Following Georgia's close shave against Colorado, I dropped the 'Dawgs to 16th. The following week's narrow escape in Oxford caused me to leave the Bulldogs stranded in the mid-teens.

While I believed Georgia was still a top 25 team after the loss to Tennessee, I did not rank the Red and Black following their loss to Vanderbilt and their subsequent win over Mississippi State did not leave me sufficiently impressed even to list Georgia alongside B.Y.U., Maryland, Tulsa, Virginia Tech, or Washington State among the teams deserving of consideration for a top 25 ranking.

Believe me, I haven't forgotten about giving up 51 points at home.

In fact, because of the Bulldogs' consistently poor play in recent weeks, I left the Classic City Canines languishing in oblivion, despite their 6-2 record and their shutout road victory over a South Carolina team with a 5-2 record, which I ranked 23rd.

As my treatment of my own team demonstrates, I consistently penalize good teams for playing poorly against lesser opposition . . . which brings us to the heart of the matter.

What Fighting Irish fans find truly maddening about the treatment given to their team on my BlogPoll ballot is that I insist upon holding Notre Dame to the same standard as every other team in college football.

Some fans of the squad from South Bend simply find this infuriating. Notre Dame is the only school with its own T.V. contract. In an era in which such other major independent powers as Florida State, Miami, and Penn State all felt compelled to join conferences, Fighting Irish football remains defiantly without a league affiliation, despite its natural ties to the Big Ten and the Big East.

The mainstream news media have shown such slavish devotion to giving the Golden Domers the benefit of a double standard---1966, anyone?---that followers of the Fighting Irish find it difficult to wean themselves from the idea that their team is entitled to such preferential treatment as a matter of course.

I don't believe Notre Dame is entitled to any particular benefit of the doubt by virtue of the fact that it's Notre Dame . . . not any more than I believe that Georgia is deserving of special consideration on account of the fact that it is my alma mater.

We have bad murals in Athens, too.

Notre Dame fans love their football team and are true to their school. This is to their credit and I respect the Rakes for standing up for their coach and their program. However, the scarlet sin of which I am guilty is judging Notre Dame by the same guidelines that I apply to every other Division I-A team, my own not excepted.

I refuse to genuflect at the altar of South Bend. I refuse to be awed by a program that has been "returning to glory since 1993." E.S.P.N. may be blinded by the glint off of the Golden Dome, but, to me, the Irish are just another team that's 0-1 against the Red and Black.

I'm simply not buying the hype. Knute Rockne made up the story about the Gipper. The green jerseys make the Irish look like Gumby. Rudy was offsides. Notre Dame is like marijuana . . . they both get smoked in a bowl. Jesus Christ doesn't care when a touchdown is scored in South Bend. The 2005 Golden Domers were not---and, so far this season, the 2006 Golden Domers are not---worthy of a B.C.S. berth.

The Fighting Irish are just like everybody else and, here at Dawg Sports, they will be judged accordingly. Sometimes the truth hurts, but, painful or not, truth is still truth.

Go 'Dawgs!

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Notre Dame football
I usually agree with Kyle.  But here I disagree.  Notre Dame is THE game on most every team's schedule.  They are the team that everybody gets up for.  Take Georgia Tech this year: other than UGA who else would GT have LOVED to beat this year other than ND (and I am not so sure that given the chance a sizable percentage of GT fans wouldn't trade a loss to Georgia for a win against ND).

Notre Dame plays each week with a bulls-eye painted on their jerseys.  No other team carries the burden (yes, burden) of being Notre Dame each week to each game.  

I love the Dawgs - I bleed red & black - but Notre Dame is Notre Dame and no one else is.  I like the green jerseys, I think Rudy is a good movie - if Rockne made up the Gipper story, more power to him for being so smart.

They aren't like everybody else - a 8-3 ND team probably is better than an 8-3 UCLA team or an 8-3 GaTech Team or an 8-3 Michigan State team....

(Geez - I hope TKK doesn't take away my commenting privledges for this)....

ONE MORE THING -- if you are going to have posts exclusively or predominately about ND, can we get a ND poster girl -- I have a thing for dark headed (or red headed) women of Irish descent.  Work on that will ya?

by Blogger who came in from the cold on Oct 25, 2006 2:27 PM EDT   0 recs

Notre Dame
I too am rather fond of the Rakes, but I generally agree with Kyle on this one.  As to the "bullseye" theory, I don't think it's really valid. I doubt Tennessee, a recent intersectional Irish opponent, is any more up for the Irish than they are for Florida (or Georgia, now that that series is finally competitive again).  I seriously doubt that Michigan and Ohio State, perennial Irish opponents since time immemorial, get more jacked for the Irish than they do for each other.  I also doubt that teams playing the Irish take it any more seriously, even at a subconscious level, than teams that play Ohio State, USC, Miami, or any other perennial power. And an 8-3 Notre Dame team is just that, 8-3.  This is the point the Rakes made in (unnecessary) rejoinder to Kyle.  That hypothetical UCLA team could just as easily argue that USC always gets up for their crosstown rivalry, and that if they were instead playing Minnesota, that game would be a win.

In fairness, BWCIFTC (if I may be so bold as to call you by your acronym), I believe you would have been right 15 years ago, when Lou Holtz was spittling his way across the South Bend sidelines and Notre Dame had actually won a New Year's Day bowl game within recent memory.  But today's players don't really view Notre Dame the same way we old timers do, because the Domers haven't had a Heisman Trophy winner or won a National Championship during the life times of some of the players they're now recruiting (kinda like us, unfortunately).

I also think the argument is tautological.  This bullseye argument essentially asks us to find that Notre Dame gets a tougher game from the average opponent than other teams, regardless of other external factors.  Why?  Because they're Notre Dame, and Notre Dame is special. Why is Notre Dame special?  Because everybody just knows they are, and as a result they get everyone's best game. See how it goes round and round?  But that's just the philosophy major in me talking.  Remind me to tell you later how much Mike Adams reminds me of Wittgenstein . . .

Kudos to you on a well reasoned comment, however.  I just politely disagree.

by MaconDawg on Oct 25, 2006 3:58 PM EDT   0 recs

thanks for the kind words
Yes - my argument is cicular - but by its very nature it has to be -- Notre Dame is treated differently (their own tv contract, there own BCS bid) which makes them different which makes them different.

I have not been in the locker room of a college football team in 20+++ years, but I do think that GaTech was likely more pumped for ND than say.... Clemson.  I think Navy will be more up for ND than anyone else but Army (and maybe Air Force).  ND is the #1 or #2 game on everyone's schedule because they are Notre Dame.  They are still the ones with the movies about them, the songs about them, the ESPN sycophants about them.  All of that makes everyone want to beat them.

You cannot prove that they are different because it is not subject to proof. That Notre Dame is different is an axiom not a theorem (playing to the philosophy major in you).  ND will stop being different when 'everyone' (TV, BCS, ESPN et al.) stops treating them as though they were.

Kyle - where are we on the RedHeaded mascot for DawgSports posts about ND?

by Blogger who came in from the cold on Oct 25, 2006 4:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

notre dame
you are absolutely 100% correct.  everyone else has to work and what the irish get as a gimme.

by lola on Oct 25, 2006 6:09 PM EDT   0 recs

Still hate 'em.
Unfair TV contracts, unfair bias by the media, and rankings based solely on the past make me sick. What if Bama, for example, got the same treatment? It's time these sissies lived by the same rules as the rest of us. Hairy Dawg would/could/should kick the leprachaun's (sp.?)  ass.    
"Herschel is just a big, slow back". - Vince Dooley; August, 1980

by Elmo Lewis on Oct 25, 2006 8:20 PM EDT   0 recs

For what it's worth . . .
. . . Charlie Weis is making it very easy to hate Notre Dame these days!

His claim that Tennessee's comeback win over Alabama was no different from Notre Dame's comeback win over U.C.L.A. was laughable. The Bruins have shown little grit under Karl Dorrell, particularly on the road, and the Fighting Irish seldom have appeared on U.C.L.A.'s schedule, whereas the heated rivalry game between 'Bama and the Vols on the third Saturday in October is a staple of the sport, so much so that tenacity by the less highly regarded team is commonplace due solely to the intensity of the hatred between the two teams.

Since those Notre Dame fellows are so doggone smart, let's try putting this in the form of an S.A.T. analogy: "Overcoming a deficit against a Karl Dorrell U.C.L.A. defense is to overcoming a deficit against a Joe Kines Alabama defense as slicing through melted butter with a hot knife is to running into a brick wall repeatedly."

If Charlie doesn't get that, he needs to take that gaudy Super Bowl ring he insists on wearing and go back to the N.F.L. . . . or, perhaps, join a conference so he can learn a thing or two about how the emotions are ramped up a bit for league games.

In any case, though, he needs to quit believing his S.I.D.'s press releases and accept the facts that (a) Florida and Tennessee have played what are, overall, tougher schedules thus far than Notre Dame's; (b) the Gators' and the Volunteers' respective lone losses came in competitive games, whereas the Fighting Irish got blown out at home; and (c) U.F. and U.T. have actually beaten someone of note, which is something Charlie has yet to do.

by T Kyle King on Oct 26, 2006 11:47 PM EDT   0 recs

GT more pumped for ND than Clemson?
I highly doubt that ND was "more pumped up for ND than Clemson".
Because ND isn't affiliated with any conference, the only teams that consider ND their 'biggest game' are the other unaffiliated schools - Navy.  And even then you can argue that Army is a bigger game for them.
GT - would rather beat UGA any given day.  And I bet Gailey and their players would rather win the ACC, or at least their side of it...so beating a top 10 Clemson team who WAS the team to beat in the ACC is much much bigger than beating ND.
UCLA's bigger game is USC.  Same conference, same city, a lot bigger stakes.  Same reason that Michigan is Michigan State's biggest game, and Ohio State is Michigan's biggest game.
USC?  Maybe lately...but given a choice of beating Cal for the Pac 10 title or beating ND, they would take the title as the bigger game.  Oh, and UCLA is a cross-town rival as well.

So I'm going to agree with Kyle here, that whoever plays ND is preparing as if they were going to play big time school, but not anymore than they would if they were playing Michigan, Ohio St, Tennessee, FSU, etc etc.  This myth that ND is the biggest game on everyone's schedule is what it is:  a myth.

by oreo on Oct 27, 2006 10:09 PM EDT   0 recs

UCLA treated last Saturday like their bowl game...
So they were playing pretty hard.  Watch the game.  And I understand Alabama is all gritty and SEC and everything, but they were losing at the half to Duke.  Hooray to Tennessee for coming back, but they shouldn't have been down in the first place.  I won't argue that the overall resumes of Florida and Tennessee are probably better than ND's - particularly the loss - so why weren't they ranked ahead of them before last weekend's polls?  Charlie questioning the movement of teams seems like something that should be done more often in order to hold the voters to some sort of accountability.

And cute idea about Charlie needing to join a conference so he can understand the ramped up emotion of league games.  There's no emotions involved in Notre Dame/USC or Notre Dame/Michigan, especially when you compare it to something like Mississippi State/Georgia.  

http://www.rakesofmallow.com/

by CW on Oct 28, 2006 9:55 AM EDT   0 recs

All right, that's two emotional games a year
Try playing six or seven of them, including two or three in a row, and then we'll talk.

Also, the word "cute" has no place in any sentence that also mentions Charlie Weis.

by T Kyle King on Oct 28, 2006 12:00 PM EDT   0 recs

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