The Case for Clemson: Why the Tigers Should Be the 14th SEC Team
A "high-ranking SEC official" told the Sporting News' Matt Hayes that "every option is on the table now". Presumably that means any kind of gentleman's agreement about not taking schools from current SEC states is off.
Year2 (September 19, 2011)
Today, as fate would have it, is the anniversary of the birth of Mike Floyd, a Spartanburg, S.C., native and University of Georgia alumnus who acquired no small measure of notoriety 20 years ago for his contribution to what then remained one of the most heated rivalries in all of college football. Just prior to the 1991 gridiron clash between the Georgia Bulldogs and the Clemson Tigers, the student newspapers on the respective campuses exchanged columns, with the words of Tiger sports editor Geoff Wilson appearing in The Red and Black, and Floyd’s contribution being published in the Fort Hill paper.
Floyd’s blistering takedown of Clemson’s lack of national tradition started a firestorm in the Palmetto State, as several Greenville and Spartanburg radio stations read his column on the air, prompting angry calls to local drive-time shows and threats phoned in to Mike’s father, John, who lived in Spartanburg and was warned to "watch his house tonight." The game that followed, a 27-12 Red and Black victory between the hedges that snapped a three-game series losing streak to the Country Gentlemen on October 5, 1991, was one of the classics in the storied rivalry.
The struggle we traditionalists have had with the prospect of SEC expansion is what it does to the heritage we love. While the addition of the Arkansas Razorbacks and the South Carolina Gamecocks nearly two decades ago has worked out spectacularly well, there were casualties. Yes, Georgia resumed its annual affrays with the Palmetto State Poultry, a longstanding out-of-conference opponent, in divisional play, but ersatz rivalries were concocted out of next to nothing, while such established series as the Auburn Tigers’ regular tussles with the Florida Gators and the Tennessee Volunteers went by the wayside. Similar sacrifices certainly will be made as the era of the superconference dawns.
This puts the SEC in a particularly precarious position, as the Texas A&M Aggies boast the only program that makes complete cultural, financial, and geographic sense in a process that is driven by money but must at least pay lip service to sanity and tradition. The most natural fits for the expanded league evidently were disqualified from the outset, due to the widely-rumored but never confirmed "gentleman’s agreement" between Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, and South Carolina. This gentleman’s agreement, assuming it existed, was approximately as absurd as our jury system’s penchant for immediately ousting from the pool the most educated prospective jurors; booting as a matter of course the candidates who make the most logical sense is not the way to grow the brand . . . which is why we found ourselves talking realistically about such far-fetched contenders as the Missouri Tigers, Virginia Tech Hokies, and West Virginia Mountaineers.
Though I can’t stand the thought that Mike Slive may have been outmaneuvered by the ACC, I was pleased to read the passage penned by Year2 quoted at the outset of this posting. When it at long last appeared that the rumors were more than merely rumors, my immediate reaction was: I want us to get Clemson, no matter how illogical that reaction may be, and, beyond that, I knew only that I was going to be ticked if Texas A&M’s reported entry into the conference in 2012 caused the cancellation of Georgia’s scheduled series with Clemson in 2013 and 2014.
Clemson, of course, could not be a more perfect fit for the SEC in terms of location or folkways. The Tigers have longstanding rivalries with their two nearest SEC East neighbors, Georgia and South Carolina; they have historic ties to Alabama (Frank Howard, Danny Ford, Dabo Swinney) and Auburn (Walter Riggs, John Heisman); a rivalry between Clemson and LSU---between the Tigers from Death Valley and the Tigers from Death Valley---would be a natural. The Aggies and the Jungaleers could be paired as annual inter-division rivals without upsetting the existing order too much. Clemson has the look and feel of an SEC school already, so much so that, when the Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets left the league in the 1960s, Georgia counted a couple of clashes with Clemson as conference games. To be blunt, having Clemson in the SEC makes more sense than having either Arkansas or South Carolina in the SEC.
The Tigers’ problem is that familiarity has bred contempt, at least from the standpoint of the marketplace: Clemson cannot deliver a new media market, the way Texas A&M can and Missouri, Virginia Tech, or West Virginia might (though probably wouldn’t). Still, expansion has less to do with the size of the market near the team than with the size of the team in the market, which is why the Florida St. Seminoles, despite residing squarely within the existing SEC footprint, are a strong candidate, because the Tribe’s long-established national brand (though tarnished by the experience of recent seasons) makes FSU a commodity capable of luring eyeballs to television sets from locales far outside the Sunshine State panhandle.
Of course, with all due respect to Mike Floyd, Clemson also had a previous national championship pedigree prior to faltering, just as Florida State did, and, while the Seminoles have been consistently good more recently than the Jungaleers, there’s something to be said for appealing to the sensibilities of my age demographic, which is more likely to have attained optimal income level than the younger age demographic that remembers Bobby Bowden, rather than Danny Ford, as the skipper of the ACC’s most dominant program. Also, not for nothing, but Clemson and Florida State both played arguably the best game of football either has played in more than a decade last Saturday . . . and the Tigers won.
On the all-important question of market penetration, let’s not overlook what Clemson can bring to the table. The Country Gentlemen’s appearance in the 2009 Gator Bowl produced a 58 per cent ratings increase over the previous year’s game, and, when Clemson squared off with Auburn in the 2007 Chick-fil-A Bowl, the resulting 5.09 rating represented the second-highest rating for a non-BCS bowl game that year. Clemson fields the ACC’s most popular football team and the country’s tenth most popular football team, which would make it the SEC’s fifth most popular football team (including Texas A&M). Without putting too fine a point on it, we’ve seen games between current Southeastern Conference clubs and the Orange and Purple generate considerable interest, as well. Simply stated, folks will watch Clemson play an SEC team; at a minimum, then, we ought to treat next Saturday’s showdown between the Seminoles and the Tigers as a league expansion play-in game.
Though I understand and respect Bill Connelly’s view that the Fort Hill Felines "are a bit less of a possibility now" that "ACC programs are off the table," I believe that, while the addition of the Pittsburgh Panthers and the Syracuse Orange solidifies the Atlantic Coast Conference as an AQ league, it does not solidify Clemson’s place in that league. Though they have improved on the hardwood in recent years, the Tigers sport a football-first program, and the ACC is a basketball-first conference. The earlier importation of Florida State, Miami, and Virginia Tech demonstrated a degree of devotion to the gridiron, but bringing in Pitt and Syracuse unmistakably represents a roundball-related realignment.
That matters to Clemson because football matters to Clemson, and because the Country Gentlemen’s view of the "Tobacco Road Mafia" of basketball-centered North Carolina-based schools has always left the Orange and Purple as the odd man out in a league whose value judgments have not aligned with those in Fort Hill since Frank Howard was complaining about the implementation of higher academic standards than those imposed by the NCAA. The ACC did nothing to endear itself to the Tiger faithful when adding extra sanctions to those handed down by the NCAA in the early 1980s, either.
The addition of Pitt and Syracuse, cold-weather schools that presently are far better at basketball than football, sends a signal that is being heard loud and clear in upstate South Carolina: The ACC values least the sports, football and baseball, that Clemson values most. Such decisions by the Big 12, which were viewed in Lincoln as consistently favoring Austin, ultimately drove the Nebraska Cornhuskers from the current iteration of the conference they had claimed for more than a century. Don’t think the Tigers wouldn’t be equally willing to abandon the ACC for a league whose priorities more closely match their own.
I freely admit that I am not impartial upon this point; I consider the Georgia-Clemson rivalry one of the most important in all of sports, and I have ulterior motives for wanting to see it rejoined. That said, the case for Clemson is airtight from a cultural and geographic perspective, and it is stronger than has been widely conceded from a financial standpoint, and, heck, the addition of Texas A&M might be enough of a boon to make a little bit of a loss leader financially feasible on the other side of the league. If, as Year2 reports, every option truly is on the table, there is no doubt that the SEC ought to extend its reach about an hour’s drive up I-85 from the Classic City to Lake Hartwell.
It may arrive a little late, but Mike Floyd deserves to receive as a birthday gift the resumption of the Georgia-Clemson rivalry as an annual SEC East battle. If the SEC must expand---and, at this point, there is no getting around the fact that it must---then the "gentleman’s agreement" be damned; invite the Country Gentlemen to join the conference. They want us. We want them. I don’t care what South Carolina wants, because, frankly, if we had bought the substance of South Carolina’s current argument against Clemson 20 years ago, we wouldn’t have invited South Carolina to join. Make it happen.
Go ‘Dawgs!
126 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I dont know Kyle
according to the NYT data, GT’s large fanbase is who we should go after. SO MANY FANS.
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 19, 2011 7:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Something about an internet based survey
Tends to make me think there’s a certain level of self-selection bias among those surveyed which favors Georgia Tech.
The 984 Has Spoken!
by The984 on Sep 19, 2011 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
if you read it in more detail
there’s more than just that. I forget the specifics, but there’s a few I remember like there’s more Duke football fans than NC State or Maryland, etc. Horrible data. The article should’ve been “hey, we tried to collect and interpret data and look at the crazy results we got. Let’s analyze Dewey defeats Truman”. Instead it was a serious article about market strength.
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 19, 2011 8:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If their was ever an example of concision, that was it, right there.
That being said, dang, if the word Clemson comes up, you have something to say about it. Wish I could pen just one article as deep ,articulate, poignant, and impassioned as you can on a Monday afternoon. With no grammatical or spelling errors found on a first read.
I haven’t decided my vote yet. Whereas I may be able to influence a few score (on the best of days) as to how the play action is supposed to work, my opinion means absolutely nothing when it comes to conference expansion.
I tell you this though: I don’t think anything is happening fast.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
"there" not "their" - I so suck today.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
Thanks, tankertoad.
However, I inadvertently omitted another point: Clemson and Florida would be natural SEC East rivals, as well. Their common history includes two shared coaches, Josh Cody and Charley Pell; the latter’s defection to Gainesville (because he believed he could win a national championship with the Gators, but not with the Tigers) produced many hard feelings, but it also caused the elevation of Danny Ford to the head coaching post at Fort Hill.
I totally dropped the ball on that one, which leaves me less than enthused enthusiastic about the quality of my recent work . . . a point upon which South Carolina fans ostensibly would agree vehemently.
Go 'Dawgs!
But think about what a shot in the arm this will be...
… for the Clemson lacrosse program!
by vineyarddawg on Sep 19, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
College Football used to be and should be about tradition.
As a part-time Clemson fan (Dad went there so I grew up pulling for them with Daddy, brother goes there, etc.), I was honestly a little worried that the Big East would make a similar move as the ACC did this past weekend (grabbing 2-4 ACC schools), the SEC would take VT and FSU, and Clemson would be left on the outside looking in. That would be a real shame because Clemson has more athletic tradition than many “superconference” schools in such a situation, and Clemson is a damn fine school from an academic standpoint with passionate fans.
So, while I am definitely relieved that the ACC acted first and Clemson is ensured a spot in this Brave New World, I would still like the SEC to reach out and absorb them for the reasons you stated. From a cultural and tradition-based standpoint, there is no more natural of an addition with the exception of possibly Georgia Tech. From a competitive standpoint I think they would fall between the historic East powers (UF, UT, UGA) and the other East schools (USC, UK, Vandy). From a personal standpoint, it would bring back the UGA-Clemson rivalry and I can only imagine how much fun the game atmosphere would be considering the lack of distance between the two schools and the passionate nature of both fanbases.
I know my dad held a special place of hate in his heart for UGA, which, although tempered by my attendance of the University, would be fun to rekindle a little bit.
It's interesting that you have a father-son connection between Georgia and Clemson.
There actually are a great many such connections between the two schools. Mark Richt coaches at Georgia; Jon Richt signed with Clemson. Georgia receiver Zippy Morocco’s son, Chris Morocco, played quarterback for Clemson. Clemson quarterback Tommy Ray’s brother, Jimmy Ray, played quarterback for Georgia. Clemson defensive tackle Ronnie Kitchens’s brother, Steve Kitchens, played linebacker for Georgia. Georgia offensive lineman Jeff Harper’s son, Cullen Harper, played quarterback for Clemson. Clemson tight end Anthony King’s son, Tavarres King, plays for Georgia. The Bulldogs’ Dennis Hughes and Charles Whittemore both had brothers who attended Clemson. Georgia president Patrick H. Mell’s son, Patrick Hues Mell, served as president of Clemson.
Go 'Dawgs!
I know who I want
And that’s Clemson and FSU to the SEC East and someone to go with TAMU in the West.
Either that… or move a school (like Tennessee) to the West and add a third Eastern team.
Clemson and FSU are both perfect fits for the SEC. In fact, if the ACC adds Rutgers and UConn to go with Syracuse and Pitt, maybe we should take FSU, Clemson and Miami. In that case, UNC and Duke become the southernmost ACC schools. That would fit pretty well geographically with their new conference, and those schools would fit very well with ours.
I'm good with that.
Of course, as long as we get Clemson, I’m good with just about anything.
Go 'Dawgs!
Works for me.
As long as we get FSU and Clemson in the SEC, I don’t care who the last team is. I don’t know how much Mizzou really has to offer to the conference, but I’d become really easy to please if FSU and Clemson joined up.
We are absolutely in agreement, DocSkraynj.
If Clemson is in the SEC East, I’m a happy camper. I can live with pretty much any other teams they bring in at that point.
Go 'Dawgs!
Or FSU to the West.
and Tech and Clemson to the East. For UGA they keep the series with Auburn and Tech, and add Clemson.
Florida swaps LSU for FSU would be the only drastic change. Then Tiger/Tiger and A&M vs Tech annually.
- FOW
by skandrewj62j on Sep 20, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tech offers nothing
to the SEC at this point, IMO. They’re not great at anything and the TV market they attract is already covered by Georgia. Plus, FSU just feels like an SEC East team to me.
They consistently beat us in volleyball.
And they’ve become a bit more competitive in women’s basketball and women’s tennis (their only NCAA team championship was in women’s tennis a few years ago). And, of course, they’re pretty good at baseball. None of that helps, TV-wise, of course.
Hopefully our new volleyball coach
fixes that problem.
Not true
The SEC’s Dungeons and Dragons programs are severely lacking.
Sacrificing goats, chugging Maker's Mark, and walking underneath The Arch.
by RedCrake on Sep 20, 2011 5:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And the Quidditch team sucks.
Not as much as Georgia State’s Quidditch team… but still.
by vineyarddawg on Sep 21, 2011 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
"...offers nothing to the SEC at this point, IMO. They’re not great at anything and the TV market they attract is already covered by Georgia."
Thought you were talking about Clemson there for a moment.
Dum spiro spero - "While I breathe, I hope"
State motto of South Carolina
by The Feathered Warrior on Sep 20, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Clemson's fanbase
is so much better than Tech’s. So is their basketball team. I’m also fairly certain that many more people would want to watch Clemson vs. Florida or Tennessee than Tech vs. Florida or Tennessee. Could you imagine how few people would show up to watch Tech play Vandy in Atlanta?
Vandy at Tech (and vice versa) did make me laugh.
But let’s be honest, everyone at Dawg Sports is well-learned in how to make fun of GA Tech. Tech is a school with old rivalries to many of the SEC teams, a tradition that I would call rich yet unable to be where it should be in the contemporary.
Their basketball has fallen off recently, plus I like the Clemson vs GA Tech rivalry and I personally wouldn’t want to seen that broken up.
- FOW
by skandrewj62j on Sep 21, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Feels like an East team
That would be the Florida before the State University that feels like an East team.
- FOW
by skandrewj62j on Sep 21, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm just a wondering turtle
But, Clemson doesn’t fit Academically with the SEC does it? Oh and there’s about $20 Million dollars that would have to be overcome.
I like Turtles!
Follow @RedTerrapin
Academically, Clemson is a slightly better Auburn.
Both are engineering focused, but also offer a range of studies in other disciplines.
There is a reason that Clemson is known to SEC-folk as “Auburn with a lake.”
In terms of USNEWS rankings, Clemson (#68) ranks between UGA/UF(#58) and Alabama(#75)/Auburn(#82).
RedTurtle, why and how do you have the idea Clemson doesn't fit academically?
Did you have the impression Clemson was much better or much worse school than “the SEC”? Where did that impression come from?
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
In the back of my head
and this is a mistake I know, but I tend to put all of the SEC in the same category as West Virginia.
I like Turtles!
Follow @RedTerrapin
Well, that is interesting. And as a Maryland fan/grad does that mean you consider WV to have below average, average, or above average academics?
FWIW, this is directly in line with a piece I am writing, so, I really want to hear the straight shot as you have perceived it.
You really didnt answer my question either. Did you consider Clemson academics to be too low or to high for the SEC?
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
I guess I considered
Clemson to be better than most of the SEC, but I had never looked at the rankings, which it’s apparent my perceptions were untrue
I know WVU is #168 or somewhere in that neighborhood, and isn’t a cultural, or academic fit for the ACC.
I like Turtles!
Follow @RedTerrapin
I appreciate your honesty. Now duck.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
Meh.
In fairness to his perception, Clemson is better academically than 9 of the current members. I think that we, as Georgia alums/fans, tend to inflate the overall academics of the conference because our own school is so academically successful. Others are not so much.
you went with a "meh"?
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
Disclaimer: all of this is based on one
magazine’s rankings of national colleges and universities and their numbers should be taken with a grain or two of salt, but it is all we really have to objectively compare schools.
My thoughts exactly as I read through this thread.
Arguing academic reputation is as fruitless and unfullfilling as arguing who has the best football team. I mean, seriously, who’d do that?
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
by Inteljumper on Sep 19, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Not true; there is more to compare schools
But let us be clear, none of the comparisons, USNWR or otherwise, are objective.
One such comparison is that of the Public Ivies, a term coined Richard Moll in a 1985 book and expanded on byMoll and the folks at Greene’s Guides. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy
To sum it up, Georgia & Florida fall under thePublic Ivies for the south with the likes of Virginia, UNC, and Texas. Clemson, Alabama, Auburn, et al do not. (Maryland, BTW, is listed as an Eastern public ivy, along with the likes of Penn State and UConn.)
There are many other measures as well. Academic reputations are multi-faceted, and we Dawg fans can relish in the growth of UGA’s academic reputation these past 20 years. (Because we used to be viewed like Alabama—rustic and isolated, with little groundbreaking research.) A big part of UGA’s growth has been the HOPE scholarship, too. (More money, better students, both lead to better teachers.)
Really, what gets me is the overall snootiness of the ACC, Big Ten, and Texas. SEC schools have fine academic traditions, and fine historical traditions. Florida, Georgia, and Vanderbilt certainly lead the way, but the rest have world-renowned programs and faculty in specific areas, even if they’re not viewed as competitive for research dollars across the board.
And then there is the hypocrisy of the ACC and Big Ten. Ohio State, Georgia Tech, and UNC have been putting fact to the lies of how they do student-athletes right.
So, in short, claims of academic superiority are often smoke and mirrors used by presidents to hide the money games in the background.
by Jwnelson on Sep 20, 2011 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Don't get me wrong I have tremendous respect for the SEC football
outside of Kentucky I think just about every SEC game is watchable.Last weekend the ACC gave us Boston College v. Duke? God I feel bad for those fans.
I like Turtles!
Follow @RedTerrapin
V.O. Key once wrote that people from outside the South . . .
. . . tend to think of the South as one great big Mississippi, whereas Southerners, with our fine eye for detail, recognize that Mississippi is in a class by itself.
I recognize that Maryland, like West Virginia, is, at least in the strictest technical sense, Southern, but such a broad (and, to your credit, self-confessedly erroneous) generalization is only marginally less endearing than something Jim Delany might say. In fact, I have no trouble imagining those words emerging from Delany’s mouth.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on Sep 19, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, that is very interesting. I am supposed to be a Political Science Major.
I have never studied Key, never heard of him. Oddly, he is the dang Godfather of Political Science. (thanks UGA!)
from Wiki:
In 1942 Key published the first edition of his textbook, Politics, Parties, and Pressure Groups, in which he emphasized that politics was a contest and the main players were organized interest groups.
Surprise! Who knew?
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
If I may Kyle, with great reservation, attempt a correction?
Maryland and West Virginia may be, in the strictest technical sense, southern states, but they are not Southern states.
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
by Inteljumper on Sep 20, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I recently moved to Maryland
and here’s my take, folks in the south seem to consider us northerners, folks in the north consider us southerners.
I like Turtles!
Follow @RedTerrapin
Well...
… maybe if Maryland’s ancestral leaders had prevented a federal power from coming in and effecting a military takeover of the state government in 1861, the state wouldn’t have that perception problem.
/States’ Rights and all
by vineyarddawg on Sep 20, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I kind of understand what RedTurtle is getting at...
After all, I no longer consider Florida or Virginia Southern states. There’s pockets of resistance,to be sure, but they are not, culturally, Southern.
As a matter of fact, I was just in Atlanta in May…and that place has changed considerably since I last lived there in 1992. It is on the verge of losing it’s capitalized directional adjective as a city.
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
by Inteljumper on Sep 20, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm doing my part.
My accent, such as it is and ever was (mother from North Georgia, father from South Georgia, and reared in West Georgia in the TV age) has become markedly more pronounced, so to speak (so to speak), since I moved to Atlanta. And yes, the redundancy was intentional.
Salute to you good Sir!
As I traveled around some of my old stomping grounds (I lived there less than a year…born and raised in Augusta), I kept hearing Lynyrd Skynyrd’s “All I Can Do Is Write About It.” Not that Atlanta wasn’t spralling in 1992, but dadgum!
Augusta is kinda getting the same way, just less in scope and less in Yankee.
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
My wife informs me that, when I am around my relatives, . . .
. . . my accent becomes more pronounced. I am utterly unaware of this, but I have absolutely no doubt that she is correct.
Go 'Dawgs!
"I have absolutely no doubt that she is correct."
Well isn’t that the default attitude? No need to mention she was talking about your accent.
The 984 Has Spoken!
Virginia was never a Southern state . . .
It was always it’s own thing (and still is). It merely had more self-interests aligned with the South during the war than it did with the north. (See, example, how long it took to secede.)
I think one of the more telling aspects of this is that Virginia was, and still is, a Commonwealth. This is a different, but meaningful, approach to government not shared either by its northern or southern neighbors.
Thank you.
I’ve been arguing this for decades. It is a harder one to make people understand than the Florida argument.
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
Florida was Southern . . .
But now is mongrel. The south is Caribbean, the middle is Yankee, and the north and panhandle are flat-out redneck.
I grew up in Atlanta. It took trips to see family in Jacksonville for me to see racism at work. I am no fan of Florida, and I often argue it is the best argument in favor of global warming. The fact it would disappear, and Macon would get the beach, is not unattractive to me. (Don’t worry about Disneyworld—they’d build dikes and make themselves an island . . . and probably their own country.)
As T.Kyle hates Auburn, I hate Florida. Except multiply by 100.
by Jwnelson on Sep 21, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you hated Florida 100 times more than I hate Auburn, . . .
. . . you would literally explode!
Go 'Dawgs!
Technically we could take out the loan for the 20M
and with the difference in SEC vs ACC contracts, pay it off in 5 years or so without taking a hit.
After that we’d be ahead financially.
Yeah, and the $20 million is a negotiating point, anyway.
Clemson would pay something, but there’s no way it’s the full amount.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on Sep 19, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
would love it....
but president and AD will never let it happen. BOT has no backbone and current administration would not be a good fit for SEC. Their school BOT actually enjoy football success.
Clemson not a business fit
Clemson is a natural cultural fit yes.
However, Clemson would not be a wise business decision. Clemson’s last ACC title was the same year the UGA series ended (’91) Why is this important?
The state of South Carolina does not produce enough talent for 2 top 25 programs. Clemson needs the exposure in Georgia to leach talent out of the state to be competitive.
Further the TV markets Clemson brings to the table does expand the SEC footprint.
FSU does not expand the footprint but it does consolidate the TV markets which are bigger and more numerous than Clemson under the SEC. Also Florida produces enough talent to feed multiple schools. Adding FSU to the SEC would decrease the ACC’s exposure to this talent and thus give the SEC schools less competition for the talent.
Clemson does fine recruiting now.
And they will continue to play games in Atlanta and Miami, so they will continue to attack those recruiting grounds regardless of what the SEC does.
Yes they will but it does not warrant giving them even more access to the Georgia area.
by OttovonRuss on Sep 19, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I just heard a commercial
For Central Michigan. I guess they’re close by now. Let’s take them!
In all seriousness, I would love Clemson. I want teams I can travel to easily, unlike some of the other rumored teams. Plus, I would love to play them each season, in all sports.
"Don't go ninja'n nobody that don't need ninja'n!" ~ Kung Fu Hillbilly.
by Jman781 on Sep 19, 2011 10:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Clemson to the SEC
I’m a 50 year die hard fan of Clemson. And hating the SC game coots just comes natural. Putting aside the hate I have for the coots. I feel Clemson is a better fit to the SEC than the coots could ever be. Top recruits still leave our state to play in the sec, but won’t sign with the coots. We have lost a ton of 4 and 5 star recruits because we are not in the sec. Clemson in the sec would mean top ten recruiting every year. And the coots never see top ten recruiting. Clemson is a beautiful University that offers a higher standard of education. As its always been said, there is something special in them hills that draws the best of people to them. Clemson to the SEC would be awesome for the fans and the school. Oh, and AubuM got what they should have gotten last year. Their A$$ kicked by a lowly acc team. But they did have one of the top paid QB’s in college FB!!!
I would have traded SC for Clemson in a second. Clemson had more connections with the SEC than SC had. However, SC was not tied to a conf and thus an easy addition.
I have nothing against Clemson, one of my most memorable UGA games was the year the Braves clinched and UGA/Clemson played that night., maybe the best atmosphere I have ever witnessed in Athens.
Agreed with your comments on talent moving and Yes I think Clemson would have kept more in state talent if it were in the SEC and more than SC has.
by OttovonRuss on Sep 19, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Clemson had more connections with the SEC than SC had
That is a demonstrably untrue statement. We were all founding members of the Southern Conference. Tech and UGA followed Bama out in 1932 to form the SEC. Clemson and SEC stayed with NC in the Southern. In fact, Clemson and Maryland were the two schools primarily responsible for forming the ACC.
UGA owns a 41–17–4 record against Clemson. You haven’t played them since 2003 and won’t play them again until (earliest) a home-and-home in 2013-2014.
If you like ‘em better, fine. And I can see why you’d rather play them, since we’ve (ahem) recently had the upper hand on you fine folks despite so much emphasis being put into beating us.
Here's a health, Carolina, forever to thee! UNIVERSITAS CAROLIN MERID. 1801 Emollit mores nec sinit esse feros (Ovid)
"Despite so much emphasis being put into beating us"?
South Carolina is the first game on the conference schedule, and it has historically been a close game. We emphasize the game proportionally—-you should take the compliment, by the way—-instead of treating it like our most important SEC rivalry.
By “recently,” you mean very recently, as in the last 13 months. Let’s not confuse a two-game winning streak with a sea change in the series; two-game South Carolina winning streaks in 1903-‘04, 1958-’59, 1978-‘79, and 2000-’01 were followed by Georgia series streaks of 10-0, 13-0-2, 4-0, and 5-0, respectively. The Gamecocks’ next three-game series winning streak will be the first one.
Go 'Dawgs!
Don't be throwing in facts, it confuses people, and takes away from their temporary feeling of superiority.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
I just need to not say a word.
Any mention I make of South Carolina is going to be received like this:
And no, if you’re experiencing any self-doubt, seeing Kyle’s post as an affront to South Carolina is not off-base in the least. I’m sure he’ll be here soon to tell us we’re wrong and are experiencing delusions of afflicted self-importance, and he’ll have a point. But the post was full of the typical understated swipes against USC that are typical of what most of the UGA fan base thinks of us. After all, the implicit argument was essentially that the SEC should honor Florida and Georgia’s position on GA Tech and FSU but ignore USC’s position on Clemson because, after all, this is USC we’re talking about. I’m sure it got a few grins from the peanut gallery over there—and assuaged the egos that are still a bit bruised after Clowney and Lattimore broke their hearts.
You’re right. You’d think we could get a bit more respect from these guys after a solid two decades of vigorous rivalry.
Go 'Dawgs!
Great job on the Auburn game!
We hate Auburn.
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
by Inteljumper on Sep 20, 2011 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A blind tater
Mike Leach and Bill King said it best on national radio today, " Forget culture, fit, academics, rivalries etc. If anyone brings these words up they are totally out of touch with reality. This isn’t about anything but money" ClemTech brings no money, just a dilution of cash to the existing members. Carolina has Lattimore, Jeffrey and a ton of 5 stars and we recruit quite well, if not top ten, but enough to whip yall’s a$$es right regularly. Clemson drinks a huge amount of orange kool aid as you can see here. They are usually relegated to TigerNet and it’s mutual admiration society of drunk koolaid drinkers. One escaped and posted here. Lord help us. Guess what Taters, we are in the SEC whether you like it or not and you are not and won’t ever be.
by dirtydominicker on Sep 20, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm starting to believe that South Carolina fans have a language problem.
It’s a little early to claim the whipping of dollar signs on the regular when you just beat someone in consecutive years for the first time since the 1960s and have lost twice as many times as you’ve won over the last 40 years.
Your approach to the discussion smells distinctly of “message board”. Somebody get the Lysol.
Dude
When is the last time South Carolina beat Clemson with any sort of regularity?
Here is a hint: They haven’t.
*shrug* the same time we have beaten UGA with any sort of regularity. Past 2 seasons haha.
Yeh ALOT of SC fans are getting ahead of themselves. Especially with how our team is playing this season. Theres some decent and realistic fans out there still :)
Hah. Nice comeback.
Like you said, there are a lot of Carolina fans getting a little ahead of themselves and I’m faced with a lot of it, being from Columbia.
However, y’all are definitely on the right track and are a force to be reckoned with right now.
Police know what the deal is
Im a USC fan/student but I had MANY of my friends that chose to go to Clemson. And yes players looooove going to a small town college with a top party scene where the police keep their mishaps out of the public eye 90% of the time. Clemson had a player beat his GF with a towel rod in the head this past offseason which is only one among several “mishaps” up there. Did it get national attention? Of course not. They are a decent football team. GA Tech is a better fit than Clemson but I dont see yall throwin that around now are ya? UF wont let FSU in. UGA wont let GA Tech in and SC wont let Clemson in.
"GA Tech is a better fit than Clemson."
I would very much like to hear an argument in favor of that proposition.
Go 'Dawgs!
I'm not buying it either.
While I do believe that Tech would be a good fit, it is in no way a better fit than Clemson. Just being honest here… I would still like to see FSU, Clemson and Tech all join the conference.
- FOW
by skandrewj62j on Sep 21, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I do not believe Tech would come close to being a good fit, furthermore,
I am not sure why this is even a point of discussion. There is no way on earth this will ever happen. The ACC sure doesn’t want to lose them and they sure don’t want to leave the ACC and the SEC sure doesnt even want them. Nobody gains anything with GT in the SEC, in fact, everybody loses.
I am not the biggest fan of conference realignment speculation, and it is indeed speculation, as it is, but I really don’t want to be in the realm of things that will not happen.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
I'm not a fan either.
But this whole episode is speaking volumes to me. Imagine, if you will, Georgia looking to move conferences, and someone asked “What about the annual Auburn rivalry?” To which CMR replied “I can live without that,” or whatever the heck Bob Stoops said, in regards to the OK-UT rivalry. What is happening in football?
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
If he gets up, we'll all get up, IT'LL BE ANARCHY!
It’s getting crazy around here!
"Uvarum, Uvarum Fit, Uvarum.... double Fit..."
- Augustus "Gus" McCrae
by Munson's_Marbles on Sep 21, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
But they left.
Georgia Tech had better things to do building their legendary-ness as the “Notre Dame of the South” than be members of the SEC, and they burned a lot of bridges in that process.
Besides, bringing them back into the conference might well give UGA an additional conference win 9 out of every 10 years, if recent history is any indication. Even if the series started to even out, UGA would free up an OOC opponent spot for a marquee or extra home game.
by Cousin Pat from Georgia on Sep 20, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Anecdotal, unsourced stories are...
anecdotal at best.
To make the bold statement that law enforcement officers would minimize a crime, hide it, or leave innocents at risk for the sake of a college football team is insulting to those professionals. Not buying it.
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
by Inteljumper on Sep 21, 2011 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you want to add another Vandy with less awesome fans and an unearned sense of entitlement, be my guest.
We’re gonna play and beat them 8 out of 10 years (even when we suck) so I’m not the least bit worried about them joining the conference.
The reason we aren’t “throwin that around” is because adding another patsy doesn’t help the conference.
And we’re trying to save ya’ll from having several thousand of these invade Columbia every other year.

Sacrificing goats, chugging Maker's Mark, and walking underneath The Arch.
not undrstading
would recruiting not be better for sec schools in sc if Clemson joins the sec? Should Clemson ever join would they not fall immediately to the middle of the pack making them less desirable than other sec schools? Clemson doesn’t have a president or AD to succeed in the sec. Wouldn’t recruiting be easier like a vandy-tenn. Situation?
Clemson has recruited well despite ties to the SEC. Adding membership to the SEC would only increase Clemson’s ability to recruit.
SC has recruited much better since joining the SEC despite the mediocrity before SOS to outright terrible in the late 90s.
Clemson has the resources and more history than SC to rebuild a national contender. If SC can be a favorite for the SEC East a little more than a decade after going 0-11, a few changes at Clemson and they can too. Presidents and ADs come and go.
by OttovonRuss on Sep 19, 2011 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Clemson has a great atmosphere, has been gettig 9 win seasons somewhat regularly just beat Auburn, gave Auburn all they could handle last year and ’07 in the Peach.
Clemson could quickly challenge for 2nd in the east with a few more recruits they would win just by being in the SEC. Would I expect Clemson to be win the East? no Getting more Georgia and Florida recruits than now? yes
SC was 0-8 in bowls before joining the SEC and generally a .500 team.
by OttovonRuss on Sep 19, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Novel idea on conference talks
Instead of looking for a 14th team to go with A&M, how about we just hope Auburn gets the death penalty then we kick them out? Forget all this expansion talk.
The 984 Has Spoken!
by The984 on Sep 19, 2011 10:59 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
My opinion...

http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Sep 19, 2011 11:31 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
According to the NY Times
Clemson has the 10th biggest fanbase in college football. No wonder they would be such a huge get!
/now, take a good look at those numbers
//Tech with 60% more fans than UGA? LOLWUT
That, UGAVike, is the greatest misuse of data I've ever seen, in terms of sport fandom.
I mean, on top of Tech having 60% more fans than UGA…they have 2x as many as FSU, arguably ACCs most popular football team?!?
Success is never final. --Winston Churchill
by Inteljumper on Sep 20, 2011 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
There's one comment which makes it even funnier
The vast majority of UGA grads stay in the state of Georgia after they graduate. Whereas the majority of Georgia Tech grads leave the state for destinations across the globe. A large number of SEC grads gravitate to Atlanta. So I’m sure on the surface it appears UGA has a lock on the fanbase, but that clearly isn’t the case. Any reasonably intelligent person understand this.
GT has more than it’s fair share of fans, they just aren’t in Georgia and can’t make the games in person.
Another issue with GT is it competes with all the other attractions Atlanta has to offer, including 3 pro franchises, making it difficult to attract sidewalk fans to fill up the stadium. Just this past weekend GT had to compete with Music Midtown. Many fans either want to attend other events, or don’t want to brave downtown traffic with so much going on. But they are still fans.
The wonderful thing about the data presented above, it is captures all the GT fans outside of the state. If only the survey was open to locales outside the US, I think GT would do even better.
The UGA fans here obviously don’t like facts. I would kindly suggest you exit the New York Times, and go back to… well… whatever it is you usually find yourselves reading.
I gues that’s why they had to reduce the size of their stadium. All of their fans were just moving out of the country or going to Falcons games if they stayed in-state.
The 984 Has Spoken!
The vast majority of GT leave the state for destinations across the globe, wait for it,
because they are from destinations across the globe. I am from midtown and my mother still lives there. She finds it scary to drive in August because of all the international students learning to navigate Atlanta (and be wowed by walmart).
Fans can’t make a game because, well, there are other things to do? Fan is short for fanatic, meaning a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal. You don’t have extreme enthusiasm if you are side tracked by mid town Atlanta, and oh, you can catch the music after a game. Be a nice day.
I don’t know why I am even responding to this.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
"fan" from "fanatic"
It is widely accepted as fact that the origin of the term “fan” is as an abbreviation of “fanatic”, but there is scant, if any, etymological or linguistic evidence to support a connection. If it’s true, it would appear that English speakers leapt from using “fanatic” in connection with religion (and sometimes other ideology) to using “fan” in connection with sports without ever having taken the expected interim step of using “fanatic” for sports (specifically, baseball, btw). It is at least as likely that “fan” is short for “fancier”, which does, in fact, appear in use in connection with sports, unlike “fanatic”, prior to the advent of “fan”. However, as with many things, the end appears to justifiy the presumed means.
by NCT on Sep 20, 2011 11:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
thanks "that guy", but let's be realistic
We compare football to religion in the south. Our nation was founded on religious principles. The likelihood Americans know the word fanatic is much higher than the word fancier. Occam’s Razor and all that.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
Perhaps.
But I respectfully suggest that you are viewing the matter from today’s perspective and what today’s Americans know and don’t know about the word fanatic. When the word “fan” first came into common use in the 19th century, Americans more likely were much more familiar with “fancier” than “fanatic” as it applied to being a devotee of a sports team. I’m. Just. Sayin’.
It does make sense in the 19th century people would have been more interested in animal breeding. Just Saying. :)
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
Either way, chicken and egg and all that,
The fact remains that you are correct that college football fans are more accurately described in today’s language as fanatics than as fanciers. And as I frequently demonstrate in embarrassing displays, I am both a fanatic and a fancier or language. Because I’m zealous. And fancy.
nothing wrong with being fancy
/insert funny picture here that i cant from work
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
Actually
It was coined in Moravia in 1811 from fantzenslhutzensthalfkin which was a Chzek military regiment designed to support Moravian independence. The preferred means of protest was to play the prussians in a game of strategofacinswafel (later made into a board game version called stratego). Thousands died. The regiment’s families would attend the game wearing hose bearing the regiments colors. Times correspondent Richard Macleish, a raging alcoholic, shortened the team name to “fan” and the Times ran a picture of the families watching in horror with their multi colored hose on. Thus it was a misconception that started it.
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 20, 2011 11:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
f it’s true, it would appear that English speakers leapt from using "fanatic" in connection with religion (and sometimes other ideology) to using "fan" in connection with sports without ever having taken the expected interim step of using "fanatic" for sports (specifically, baseball, btw).

"It'll only be reviewed because the guys up in the booth want to watch it a few times too." AJ's one-handed catch at Colorado
That's precisely the first thing that occurred to me.
But, then again… Philadelphia. So, you know.
by vineyarddawg on Sep 20, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I have worked INTERNATIONALLY
in Yugoslavia, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Italy, England, Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Singapore, Mexico, UAE, Indonesia, Azerbajan; and nationally in South Carolina, Arizona, California, Alaska….and I can almost find a DAWG fan or three to enjoy game day with but I can count on ONE finger how many YECH grads I have met away from Georgia…I do not know where you article comes from but I would object to their research
I HATE 35 (ORANGE)
no
but fulton prism blues is.
/engineer joke
/not an engineer
/shows self out
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 20, 2011 10:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Between Saturday Falcons games
and November Braves games, it’s amazing anyone makes it to a Tech game.
by DocSkraynj on Sep 20, 2011 4:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I love the “it’s simple logic” approach here.
Unrelated: Tech ranks 5th in number of undergrads among Georgia’s public universities.
"It'll only be reviewed because the guys up in the booth want to watch it a few times too." AJ's one-handed catch at Colorado
Inviting Clemson
If the SEC plans to stop at 14 teams, then I think the invite will be going to Missouri, because Slive is going to get that school before the B1G can. Until proven otherwise, I’ll bet on Slive to still be 3 steps ahead of the other conferences.
If the SEC plans to go to 16 teams, then I think the math changes, and invites to Clemson and FSU will be on the table. Florida and South Carolina’s decision makers (different from fans) will have a more complicated choice. Being in a conference with that many brand names and national markets may make allowing those schools in more advantageous than keeping them out.
Increasing the odds that this is the case: the ACC’s recent additions, and exit fee, also make it more unlikely that the SEC will be able to lure away a Virginia Tech or NC State. Clemson and FSU are the only schools that may be willing to pay their way out of the contract to join the SEC at this point.
On the other hand, if you’re a decision maker at Clemson or Florida State, and the ACC keeps adding northeastern schools that “don’t care about football,” then your road to the conference championship game and your pull with recruits from the whole east coast has got to make you think twice before joining an SEC where you may not be able to compete for a conference crown as often.
by Cousin Pat from Georgia on Sep 20, 2011 11:12 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
yea, this isnt EDSBS
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
by chuckdawg on Sep 20, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Clemson has so many traditional ties with the SEC
Good article, and their membership makes a lot of sense. CU will always be the SEC type program in the ACC, which is what makes them unique in that league.
I am unlike a lot of fans, & I thought we should stay where we are. I enjoy my ACC basketball every year as well. But with this John Swofford, Big East / Yankee ACC thing going on, the SEC is starting to look more attractive in many ways.
New to this
How does one unsubscribe to blogs, or rearrange them on your profile page?
by *AgentOrange* on Sep 20, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Good questions.
I actually don’t see a way to “unjoin” blogs on SB Nation once you’ve joined. I know you can get banned from them. I’ll see what I can find out.
As for rearranging them on your profile page, I don’t believe that’s possible. You can designate blogs as “favorites”, and those will appear first (in alphabetical order among themselves) in the drop-down “My blogs” menu at the top left of the screen.
Thanks NCT, but...
How do you “favorite”? At the bottom of each blog it says “leave blog?” As a test, I tried that and it asked if I was sure & I clicked yes. It stayed, and left a favorite option tab in it’s place. Makes no sense to me.
by *AgentOrange* on Sep 28, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummm how about no
“having Clemson in the SEC makes more sense than having either Arkansas or South Carolina in the SEC.” Writer is out of his mind.
Well, when you articulate your position so reasonably and respectfully, . . .
. . . and with so much supporting data and so many lucid arguments, how could I disagree?
Go 'Dawgs!

by 
































