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Letting the Markets' Placement Decide: Ruminations on the Prospects for SEC Expansion

After the latest round of rumors about the Texas A&M Aggies joining the SEC went mainstream, the discussion of the topic here addressed the question of media markets. Among the several excellent points made in the comments were these:

  1. Conference expansion is 100 per cent money-driven. While, e.g., re-establishing dormant rivalries very well might be among the fringe benefits of expansion, such salutary side effects are not the goal. The growth of the SEC from twelve teams to X teams will not happen unless the resulting revenue growth causes one-Xth of the post-expansion revenue pie to be larger than one-twelfth of the current revenue pie.
  2. In that regard, the benefit to expansion is that the SEC would be able to reopen contract negotiations with its television partners if expansion brought new viewership to the table. This is why media markets matter; ESPN would not pay more for the rights to air SEC games if, to cite an absurd example, the league added the Memphis Tigers and the Southern Miss. Golden Eagles. No new eyeballs would be affixed to conference contests in such a scenario; thus, the Worldwide Leader would not pay more for the broadcast rights for a larger but not more attractive (and, hence, not more lucrative) league.
  3. Due to the foregoing considerations, media markets per se are not the determinative factor. The SEC’s television partners, CBS and ESPN, broadcast nationally; there simply are not American television markets into which they could expand, since they have a presence in every market already. Rather, what matters is whether viewers in areas presently lying outside the SEC footprint would begin watching SEC games as a result of conference expansion.

This last point is the source of much of the contention and most of the confusion. That large numbers of Texans would start tuning in to SEC games they are not now watching as a result of the Aggies’ admission to the conference does not appear to be seriously in doubt. All the other contenders, however, have to prove their ability to pull their own weight in terms of revenue generation.

Star-divide

For this reason, it may not be enough simply to say (as, admittedly, I have suggested on occasion) that, because Tallahassee lies solidly within the SEC’s geographic footprint, the Florida St. Seminoles cannot deliver the requisite viewership. The ‘Noles, having been a national brand in the ‘90s, potentially could attract fans lying outside their immediate geographic environs, by virtue of FSU’s name recognition throughout the country. For this reason, the Oklahoma Sooners possess an appeal that goes well beyond the team’s ability to deliver the Oklahoma City market.

On the other hand, teams like the Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets appear even less attractive than originally supposed. Atlanta is the site of the Chick-fil-A Kickoff Classic, the SEC Championship Game, the Chick-fil-A (nee Peach) Bowl, and large aggregations of fans of many SEC teams, most notably Georgia. Atlanta is an SEC city, and the Ramblin’ Wreck faithful simply do not bring enough interest to the table to justify the Engineers’ readmission to the conference. It’s not just that the league already owns Georgia Tech’s home media market; it’s that there aren’t enough passionate Yellow Jacket fans outside of the Institute’s immediate environs to justify the advertising rates that would boost the revenue that would make it profitable for the rest of the SEC to make the Old Gold and Navy a full equity partner.

It is here that the evaluation of the Golden Tornado’s ACC coevals becomes a mite more intriguing. We know what media markets such potential targets as the Clemson Tigers, the N.C. State Wolfpack, and the Virginia Tech Hokies are in or near, but that tells us only half the tale. At the end of the day, the question is whether college sports fans who are not now boosters of SEC teams would show up in greater numbers to watch games between current conference clubs and the likes of these.

This would seem to work against Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, and the Louisville Cardinals, all of whom already play fierce in-state rivalry games against SEC squads. It is difficult to imagine that there are Tiger, Seminole, Yellow Jacket, or Cardinal fans who are not now watching their teams’ outings against the South Carolina Gamecocks, the Florida Gators, the Georgia Bulldogs, and the Kentucky Wildcats, respectively, whose attention would be arrested if the game became a conference clash instead. As odd as it seems, the very familiarity that would make such squads logical additions in the context of existing rivalries would reduce the likelihood of increasing viewership, which is the lone consequential criterion that drives all else.

Assuming the North Carolina Tar Heels are too entrenched in the ACC to consider abandoning their roundball rivalry with the Duke Blue Devils, we are left with N.C. State and VPI as perhaps the most attractive possibilities, though, again, this is not merely a function of the media markets in closest proximity to their respective campuses. The question, to which media markets are relevant but of which they are not determinative, is whether, on any given Saturday, any given televised game between the Wolfpack and a team currently in the SEC consistently would garner more or fewer viewers than the same game featuring the Hokies in their place.

Even if we confine this conversation strictly to the gridiron---basketball, obviously, adds entirely a different dimension to the topic---the picture is a bit of a muddle. At the end of the 2009 college football season, Virginia Tech and Florida State played in the fifth- and sixth-highest rated non-BCS bowl games, respectively. The ACC also produced solid postseason ratings from 2006 to 2008, led by the Hokies, the Country Gentlemen, and the Tribe, in that order.

Last year, N.C. State won nine games while appearing on ESPN four times, ESPN2 once, and ABC once. The Wolfpack’s other seven outings were relegated to the ACC Network (thrice), CBS College Sports (twice), and ESPN3 (twice), all of which sound significantly more prestigious than they are. By contrast, the ten-win 2010 Seminoles were on either ABC or ESPN eleven times, appearing only once on the ACC Network and twice on ESPNU. The ‘Pack quite simply was a non-factor, while a comparable Florida State outfit was the far more potent television draw, despite N.C. State’s head-to-head win over the Seminoles.

The Worldwide Leader deemed freshly-resurgent Florida State a draw superior even to reliably established Virginia Tech. The Gobblers won eleven games (including the ACC Championship Game over FSU), appeared in both the Labor Day night kickoff game and the Orange Bowl, and proved as steady as ever despite an embarrassing setback suffered at the hands of a Division I-AA opponent, yet VPI made it onto ABC twice and onto ESPN five times. The rest of the Hokies’ 14-game season was spent on the ACC Network (thrice), ESPN3 (twice), and ESPNU (twice).

While my personal preference would be Clemson, for obvious and mostly selfish reasons, the Tigers’ 2010 campaign underscores the argument of those who deem the Jungaleers provincial dead weight from a market share standpoint. The Orange and Purple played 13 games last autumn, making it onto ABC and ESPN a total of five times while spending the other eight games in the TV purgatory of the ACC Network (thrice), ESPN2 (twice), ESPN3 (twice), and ESPNU (once).

By way of comparison, last year’s Alabama Crimson Tide played a combined nine games on ABC, CBS, or ESPN, appearing on ESPN2, ESPN3, or ESPNU only four times. Florida lost five games, yet still made it onto ABC, CBS, or ESPN a combined eight times. Even a Georgia club that limped to a 6-7 record and ended the regular season against an in-state rival who also wound up under .500 was featured on CBS and ESPN on a cumulative five occasions, matching the total Big Three network and Worldwide Leader mother ship appearances of Clemson and N.C. State. There simply is no point to inducting programs less telegenic than the ones we have now, as such teams would prove to be a drag on the existing members’ bottom lines. No one involved in this decision on the SEC side is willing to lose money on expansion.

The 2010 season represents a small sample, though probably not an unrepresentative one, and the boys in Bristol clearly prefer Virginia Tech to either Clemson or N.C. State, and they like the Seminoles more than the Hokies. If the SEC East finds itself in need of a new member, my heart says we should revive the rivalry with the Country Gentlemen, but the numbers say that VPI is a better choice . . . and FSU, despite sitting within the existing SEC footprint, may be more capable of delivering additional eyeballs than any other contender on our side of the dividing line.

The Sunshine State Saurians might not like it, but, by themselves, they cannot block it, though Mike Slive’s desire for unanimity might lead him to look to Blacksburg first. It is open to debate whether it is in the Bulldogs’ interests to afford the Tribe from Tallahassee the additional recruiting advantage of SEC membership, but the ‘Noles make more sense than it might, at first glance, appear.

Go ‘Dawgs!

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Political posturing got Virginia Tech into the ACC...

… I don’t know how likely it is that the Hokies can unilaterally bolt without making provision for their in-state rival. Of course, one could make the argument that West Virginia is easier for the ACC to poach from the Big East than Virginia Tech is for the SEC to poach from the ACC, so replacing VPI might not be that difficult, after all.

I just don’t get the scheduling logistics of expanding to 14 teams, though. If it goes through, this will lead to massive changes that might be even more earth-shaking than the 1992 SEC expansion and divisional split.

I think Mike Slive is diving headlong into this without really understanding the endgame (which I don’t think anyone understands at this point). But I’m just a random fat dude writing on the internet while eating potato chips and drinking a coke… what do I know.

by vineyarddawg on Aug 12, 2011 1:22 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree with you but I do think that Mike Slive is thinking this through, it’s just the a&m sites that are really pushing themselves into the SEC. I’m not sold that this is a done deal.

by Aaron.50cal on Aug 12, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

The VA/ACC politics can be worked out if the SEC really wants VT and vice versa

Remember, the ACC wanted Syracuse to begin with, so I think they’d like to still expand north.. If the SEC would approach the ACC with an agreement that they want VT and ONLY VT, then I think UVa/Va legislature/ACC would be fine with it. Especially if they know the alternative is the SEC easily poaching a no-strings-attached FSU which is more valuable to the ACC than it would be to the SEC, and more valuable to the ACC than VT.

Plus, it would open the door for the ACC to get to 12 (Syracuse) and maybe 14 (Pitt, and WVU or UConn) to bring BC some regionally influential opponents and of course get into the NYC market and the recruiting hotbed of Western PA.

by Maroon Baboon on Aug 12, 2011 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.

The bit with the Virginia legislature last time was an attempt to make sure Virginia Tech was taken care of and not left in what appeared to be a moribund Big East. No one in the Old Dominion had a problem with the two schools being in separate conferences (which they had been for years); the problem was that one of those conferences appeared to be gasping its last breath (though reports of the Big East’s death were greatly exaggerated). If Virginia was in the ACC, Virginia Tech was in the SEC, and both fan bases were happy, everyone would be fine with that . . . and it isn’t as though an SEC team having an ACC team for an in-state rival is such an oddity!

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 12, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Let me FTFY
“..it isn’t as though an SEC team having owning an ACC team for an in-state rival is such an oddity!”

"Lattimore, as the kids can say, can ball, and sometimes does it to the extent one might say [he] is out of control in his balling." - Spencer Hall

by GwinnettGamecock on Aug 12, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oops. My mistake.

I didn’t realize the two rivalries’ records were so close. My apologies. Carry on.

by NCT on Aug 12, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its cool.

I was just taking exception to the implication that USC “owned” Clemson because it is really the other way around.

by UGAVike on Aug 12, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's how I'd see it.

Stay at 8 conference games with two 7-team divisions. But instead of three interdivisional games, you play two and add the one extra divisional game.

We're all on the Hindenberg. No reason to fight over a window seat.

by Stubob72556 on Aug 12, 2011 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

So...

You’re preserving one permanent cross divisional rivalry per team, and subtracting one rotating game? It would take forever for LSU/Alabama/A&M to rotate onto the schedule!

by blackertai on Aug 12, 2011 6:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I think we'd have to go to nine games.

We learned from the two permanent/one rotating arrangement that it doesn’t work to have only one rotating opponent from the other division, because it takes too long to cycle through the entire league; that problem would be compounded if each division had seven teams instead of six.

The only other alternative would be to stay at eight conference games and play six division games and two rotating games, but that would mean the end of Georgia-Auburn and Alabama-Tennessee as annual rivalries, and all four schools would do enough howling over that to prevent it from happening.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 12, 2011 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with what you're saying...

… but I don’t think we would lose Jacksonville.

We would be more likely to lose our rivalry with Clemson, along with any other nonconference game against a team from a BCS AQ conference.

by vineyarddawg on Aug 12, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Maybe we keep the Cocktail Party....

But if we do, we lose out on any meaningful out of conference games other than Tech and a Chick-Fil-A type of kickoff game. Maybe we would go that route, which would also suck.

But I still think that we’d lose the one of the special experiences in all of college football and one of the bedrocks of the Georgia football experience. We already have a group of fans who want to move it which, I think, combined with the fact that even when we’d be able to work out a neutral site game it would likely be in the Dome would lead McGarity to move it. It is extremely rare that a team can never leave its state for an out of conference game. While Florida has been able to get away with that, we aren’t as big a name as Florida, and Tech isn’t the heavyweight that Florida State is. What’s more, with the extra home game we’d be able to have the occasional series with Clemson or some national program. With all of those factors working against it, I just don’t see how we keep it.

by TomReagan on Aug 12, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

This.

Can’t be said better.

Success is never final. --Winston Churchill

by Inteljumper on Aug 12, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

My idea for a 16 team division

For $hits and giggles let’s say the SEC adds aTm, Oklahoma, FSU, and VT

D1: FSU, UF, UGa, USCe
D2: VT, UT, Vandy, UK
D3: Bama, Aub, Ole Miss, Miss St
D4: LSU, Ark, aTm, Oklahoma

Two year home and home rotation so each team would play each other twice in a six year period minimum.

There would be two Cross division designations. A primary opponent would be a team would played every year. For Alabama that would be Tennessee. And then there would be a secondary cross division opponent. When Bama and UT’s divisions would play each other, Bama would have a different cross divisional game. Let’s say that is LSU.

Bama would play Ole Miss, Miss St, Auburn, and Tennessee every year, LSU 4 out of 6 years, and everyone else 2 out of 6 years.

by Jonathan Loesche on Aug 12, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Or since this is a Georgia site

Same divisions

Georgia’s primary cross division game would be Auburn, and the secondary would be Tennessee

Georgia plays FSU, UF, USCe, and Aub every year, UT 4 out of 6 years, everyone else 2 out of 6 years

by Jonathan Loesche on Aug 12, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ah, screw Tennessee

I’d rather our “secondary” rival in that case be aTm, Vandy, or Kentucky.

by vineyarddawg on Aug 12, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

LSU?

Am I the only one who has loved the LSU/UGA matchups in the past decade?

"Kickboxing is great. It combines the style and grace of boxing with... kicking." -- Norm MacDonald

by Anthony Pace on Aug 12, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. I’m a relatively new fan – I came on board once I got to Athens in 2003 – and the LSU games have been some of my favorites. I view them as generally right on our level, and would love to have more of a rivalry with them. I’d hate to have the frequency of that game go down.

I’ve got to say, though, that this arrangement isn’t bad if the 16 team conference comes to be. We’d go from playing most teams out of our division 40% of the time to 33% – not a terrible drop off. Of course, we’d also drop some games from 100% to 33%, so there’s that…

"It'll only be reviewed because the guys up in the booth want to watch it a few times too." AJ's one-handed catch at Colorado

by AdamLilly on Aug 13, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

aTm, Okla, FSU, and VT?

Can we also add ND and PSU?

"Kickboxing is great. It combines the style and grace of boxing with... kicking." -- Norm MacDonald

by Anthony Pace on Aug 12, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is an absolutely brutal Divisions 1 & 4

I like the idea though.

We're all on the Hindenberg. No reason to fight over a window seat.

by Stubob72556 on Aug 13, 2011 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a Tennessee fan,

I have to say I would love to see VT as an annual opponent. We in Knoxville have been clamoring for years to watch a UT-VT neutral-site matchup at Bristol Motor Speedway, and the prospect of creating a new Cocktail Party/Red River Rivalry might be the clinching factor for the SEC to pursue VT.

It could be the International Hillbilly Festival or the Smoky Mountain Melee. OK, so between Bristol TN and Bristol CT, the marketing folks can probably come up with a better name, but still…

by k-love on Aug 12, 2011 9:25 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I don't think the Bristol Motor Speedway game is possible anymore

Like they built some kind of immovable structure where the football field would be. I’ll remember who told this to me and I’ll try to put more deets.

The Bristol Motor Speedway VT/UT annual game is absolutely unequivocally the best out-of-conference rivalry game that never happened. It would have been epic. It really should have happened.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Aug 13, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Do you think FSU would have

a making national title runs in the SEC? It seems like their best chance is to stay in the ACC. Of course, I guess money>national championships?

by cerebralfish on Aug 12, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

No less than anyone else in the SEC

Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.

by AMFKNole on Aug 12, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

The whole market arguement

Was being thrown about with Big 10 expansion because of the BTN obviously. Ironically, the kind of heavy hitters the SEC needs to really blow up their deal with CBS/ESPN and get their own network might be schools that don’t bring new (or ideal) markets.

Also, Oklahoma delivers the Dallas market to a conference more so than aTm would. However, they’re tied at the hip thanks to T.Boone Pickens Ok State.

by Jonathan Loesche on Aug 12, 2011 10:06 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Hit reply too soon

Florida State brings the kind of eyeballs needed to justify a total redraw of the SEC’s TV deal, something only Oklahoma could really do as well.

by Jonathan Loesche on Aug 12, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

but i think

That a&m is better for the overall Texas market. And isn’t Houston a bigger market than Dallas?

by Mark Mandingo on Aug 12, 2011 10:44 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Not sure how recent this is
#1 New York, NY 15,340,000
#2 Los Angeles, CA 10,609,200
#3 Chicago, IL 7,612,100
#4 San Francisco, CA 6,012,000
#5 Dallas, TX 4,576,700
#6 Philadelphia, PA 4,291,700
#7 Houston, TX 4,165,000

http://www.radio-media.com/markets/main.html

by Jonathan Loesche on Aug 12, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Reading comprehension FAIL

Sorry, didn’t notice that was about market and not city population. I stand corrected as well.

by 1st Generation Ag on Aug 12, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

generally you want to look at metro areas, not cities

Metro areas vary a lot in how much of the population is in the central city, so you have some metro areas where far more people live in the suburbs or where there are multiple large cities in the same metro area, and others where most people live in a single main city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Combined_Statistical_Areas (is pretty expansive, but if you go down to the next level you don’t combine some areas that really should be).

by drothgery on Aug 12, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most recent #s have DFW at 6.3mm and Houston at 6.0mm, and both growing like crazy. In the end they’re pretty close (~5%) in size. We’re not talking about Atlanta vs Macon here.

by TadAllagash on Aug 12, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Item 1:

Conference expansion is 100 per cent money-driven.

Nebraska to the B10 is a counterexample. Nebraska didn’t add as much $ from TV markets as, e.g., Missouri would (St. Louis is much bigger than any city in Nebraska).

Championship!

by TLHWG on Aug 12, 2011 10:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Not totally, the Huskers bring in TV eyeballs thanks to a national following. Also, that huge fanbase means the Big 10 can command even more from Bowl tie ins.

by Jonathan Loesche on Aug 12, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

THIS

Nebraska travels very well to bowl games. I live in SD and I’m surrounded by Husker fans. They love to travel to the warm weather bowls because it is literally zero degrees here in early January.

Missouri is a better school academically and St. Louis has more homes, but they will get better market penetration from Nebraska. Results in more total BIG10 Network subscribers, better bowl deals, and more eyes on the set. It was 100 percent money driven.

by SDnole on Aug 12, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I addressed this below...but you're wrong

If a school is a national brand, then that’s the end of the analysis.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Aug 13, 2011 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

when a team has national appeal, where a team is located is irrelevant. But the expansion discussion is completely driven (incorrectly) by location, e.g., I’ve heard NCST b/c of the Carolina TV market, VT b/c of the Virginia market, etc.

Championship!

by TLHWG on Aug 12, 2011 10:16 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

people always talk about

the D.C. market when discussing VA Tech, but do people in DC give a flip about Virginia tech? I’m asking because I have no idea.

by Mark Mandingo on Aug 12, 2011 10:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think you have some natural interest from DC

But the Tidewater area is probably a more saturated VT market

by k-love on Aug 12, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

In any case,

I think Va Tech probably becomes one of the top 4 schools in the conference, in terms of football-watching eyes (without respect to competitiveness). Probably comparable to UGA, with a very strong in-state following for a populous state, and one major metro market not far away.

by k-love on Aug 12, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not a great comparison, UGA has a much stronger base in Atlanta than VT has in DC. VT doesn’t bring any major media markets with them. (Blacksburg is a 5 hr mountain drive away from DC, in an area with a completely different culture. Might as well be another state.) Expanding the SEC “brand” in FL & TX would be much better for the league than bringing in VT, who we’re not even clear will have a strong fan base in a down-cycle. Can’t say that about aTm and FSU.

by TadAllagash on Aug 12, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

DC has as much in common culturally

with Blacksburg, as the ATL has with Athens. But in Virginia, where Va Tech football is the only football, they have 3 of the top-50 markets, which no other SEC school can claim. Georgia is peppered with Florida, Alabama, and even Auburn or Tennessee fans, being in between those states. Not to mention Ga Tech.

In a down-cycle, who knows how fans would react? FSU hasn’t had a losing season in 35 years, and UGA just its first in 15 years. It’s been almost 20 for VT. Any speculation about potential fan behavior is just that – speculation.

by k-love on Aug 13, 2011 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

But in Virginia, where Va Tech football is the only football

James Madison University would like a word.

by vineyarddawg on Aug 13, 2011 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I lived in DC for about five years.

There is not that much interest in them. The interesting thing about DC is that a lot of people who live there are not from there originally. That is not to say there is not a large college football fan base there, it is just spread out over a multitude of teams and not focused on one.

Aaron Murray for Heisman!!

by samxrm on Aug 12, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

VT is top dog in DC among the colleges

Even though UMd and UVa are closer, there is more fan interest in VT than the other. I wouldn’t say that VT owns it though.

by Maroon Baboon on Aug 12, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

VT definitely doesn't own it

College affiliations in DC is such a mixed bag because it’s a transient town.

VT might possibly be the top draw among college teams, but I’m not sure. Penn State might give them a run for their money. Lotta Penn State kids in this town.

And, let’s assumem that VT was the top dog, they would have no more than like 8% share. The fandom in this town is THAT spread out. It’sa transient town.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Aug 13, 2011 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The Va. Tech in DC chatter is overstated

Va. Tech wants to be known as the local DC team, but that isn’t anything remotely approaching the reality and it isn’t ever going to be the reality.

People in DC care about the Redskins. There is no close second.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Aug 13, 2011 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

From the tweets being passed around this morning...

… looks like FSU is the SEC’s first choice for 14th team.

I would have preferred Clemson first, and Virginia Tech second, but FSU would probably have been my third choice.

I really don’t like the prospect of playing the Seminoles every year, however.

by vineyarddawg on Aug 12, 2011 12:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks. :-)

Yeah, FSU has always been my “any mortal enemy of Florida is a friend of mine” team.

by vineyarddawg on Aug 12, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember as a young school boy

I put a small note in a gata friend’s desk the Monday after the UGA/uf game. All it said was: 44-0.

by Invictus13 on Aug 12, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

And one of my best friends is an FSU grad.

We ritualistically (is that even a word?!?) team up against Clemson and UF every year. I’d hate for them to become a rival.

Success is never final. --Winston Churchill

by Inteljumper on Aug 12, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disregard the "is that even a word" bit above...

I’m apparently delirious from lack of sleep.

Success is never final. --Winston Churchill

by Inteljumper on Aug 12, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm really like FSU

Obviously I want Georgia to win the SEC every year, but if it’s not us, I wouldn’t feel bitter at the ’Noles taking it.

"Kickboxing is great. It combines the style and grace of boxing with... kicking." -- Norm MacDonald

by Anthony Pace on Aug 12, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Florida State and the SEC

Georgia is the only SEC school I respect. As a kid I grew up in Jacksonville and sold cokes at the Georgia-Florida game, even then I quickly recognized the difference between Bulldogs and your SEC brethren. I had the chance to go to Florida but previous experiences with Gators taught me I was not like them so I chose FSU.

While attending FSU, I discovered FSU had previously sought SEC membership for many years only to be repeatedly told ‘NO’…. many of my fellow Seminoles thought being in the SEC was best for us. Thank you SEC for saying no. Years later, the ACC comes along and wants FSU….having moved to ACC country by then and then familiar with the ACC I felt it was a better opportunity for FSU. I am glad they joined. I still believe the ACC is best for us. No doubt the SEC is currently earning more money, but that has not always been the case and no guarantee it will always be that way.

With that said, I prefer the ACC….and with the exception of Georgia….I don’t wish to be associated with the SEC schools. Should FSU chose to move to the SEC…I will end my 30+ year association with FSU as a fan and supporting alum.

Best of luck Bulldogs….run Lindsay run. GTH Gators!!!!

by SeminoleDan80 on Aug 12, 2011 12:15 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I appreciate your opinion and frank assessment, SeminoleDan80...

… and thanks for your compliments towards Georgia fans.

If I may be equally as “politely blunt,” however, ending your association with a team just because they change conferences is a pretty thin excuse.

Georgia could join the WAC and I’d still be a Georgia fan. I can’t imagine anything that would ever cause me to ditch the Dawgs… I mean, even if Michael Adams hired Steve Spurrier to be AD and Lane Kiffin to be head coach, I would still be a Georgia fan. (I would be protesting daily outside the Butts-Mehre Building, and I’ll be damned if they’d get any more of my money… but I’d still be a Georgia fan.)

It seems to me that many fans on both sides look at the prospect of FSU to the SEC with unease. We would welcome the ’Noles, though not exactly with open arms.

by vineyarddawg on Aug 12, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I just threw up!
if Michael Adams hired Steve Spurrier to be AD and Lane Kiffin to be head coach

Success is never final. --Winston Churchill

by Inteljumper on Aug 12, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Umm... that's dumb

You’d turn your back on FSU because it left a conf that has shown no real indication of having competent leadership? We made a meager TV deal (big compared to our last one, though), and gave up ALL rights.

The Pac-12 made a monster deal, and kept enough rights to have 7 or 8 networks. The SEC is a profitable, secure conf. The ACC is in danger if the SEC raids it for VT or Clem, the B10 comes calling for another team or two… FSU could be left in a conf that has less clout than the current Big East, and you’d turn your back on “your team” because it made a move to secure its future? You sure you’re a fan? (=Fanatic)

by Invictus13 on Aug 12, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the current market, there are three conferences no school not already part of them can reasonably say no to

The Big Ten, the SEC, and the Pac 12. Some schools could unreasonably say no and do okay by it (ND, Texas, UNC/Duke), but purely from a dollars and cents point of view, no Big 12 or Big East or ACC school should decline an SEC invite.

by drothgery on Aug 12, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Pretty much

If offered, I think FSU should accept. I like a lot about the ACC, but I’m not convinced it will be a safe (profitable) harbor for the long haul.

by Invictus13 on Aug 12, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

SeminoleDan80

Us FSU fans are going to miss you.

by Dauntless12 on Aug 12, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

totally off topic but

I JUST got my CMA Exam results – you regulars will recall I begged you to PRAY i would pass this thing back at the end of june…..

I PASSED!!!!! Thank you for all your prayers !!!!

I can bake like a demon.

by podunkdawg on Aug 12, 2011 12:24 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

WOOT WOOT!

Congratulations podunkdawg!! That’s awesome!

by vineyarddawg on Aug 12, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

love the video except

the excitement coincides with a Yankee’s win…..LOL

I can bake like a demon.

by podunkdawg on Aug 12, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Over the Angels no less

Guess they need to hire Danny Glover as the manager again.

We're all on the Hindenberg. No reason to fight over a window seat.

by Stubob72556 on Aug 13, 2011 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Congratulations!

Now, go out tonight and have yourself a nice victory dance! You deserve it!

"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell

by DavetheDawg on Aug 12, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Congratulations!

This is a win-win; you got the benefits of passing, and we got the benefits of you not having to take the test again (e.g., you planning the next Goat Roast instead of one of us screwing it up royally!). Kudos!

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you Everyone

it does feel very good to be done with it :) I’d much rather plan a goat roast than take that stupid test again :)

I can bake like a demon.

by podunkdawg on Aug 15, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look Another Way

Don’t look at what teams might add in viewership in their already-existing rivalry games. The answer, of course, is almost nothing. But that’s a small part of the picture. Would a team like FSU or VA Tech add extra eyeballs if they played a squad like Kentucky, or Vanderbilt, or Tennessee, or Alabama, etc, etc? Who would bring in the most extra viewers? Think about it this way, imagine the following two schedules (8 game conference schedule) if either team is added to the SEC East:

FSU
Non-Con1
Non-Con2
Non-Con3
Miami (every other year SEC owns rights to game)
Kentucky
Vanderbilt
Tennessee
South Carolina
Georgia
Texas A&M
LSU
Florida

Virginia Tech
Non-Con1
Non-Con2
Non-Con3
Virginia (every other year SEC owns rights to game)
Kentucky
Vanderbilt
Tennessee
South Carolina
Georgia
Texas A&M
LSU
Florida

Now, which schedule provides the most potential for compelling matchups, the most potential for big games, and the most potential for lucrative games for the SEC and ESPN? Just go down the list and compare game by game to ask yourself which matchup would get you more excited. I don’t think it is really close, and, except for perhaps Oklahoma, any of the other rumored candidates wouldn’t be close, either.

by whodoes on Aug 12, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Excellent points, whodoes.

Those are very valid arguments, which I thank you for sharing. Welcome!

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Best article I've seen on this...

Though I’m not totally sold on the SpearChucker reasoning with adding more TVs…

From Jax to P-Cola, the ACC fights for viewership with the SEC…starting on the east coast with UF and UGA fanbases putting the SEC on the majority of those TVs and Bama and Auburn dominating from the western border with plenty of MissSt, Rebel and LSU mixed in for good measure…Trailerhassee is the only core spot of ACC viewing on a regular basis during the CFB season…which is not a very large market of viewership to add with metro area pop of less than 400k last time I checked…

You may not like what I have to say...but somebody has to say it...

by gatorhippy on Aug 12, 2011 2:09 PM EDT reply actions  

You’re forgetting that FSU brings another national brand to the SEC. Just look at the TV rating for the bowl games we have gone too. Even the mostly crappy ones this past decade.

And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you (Jimbo) fishers of (Grown-ass) men.

Amen.

-O-Town Nole

by RollNole5 on Aug 12, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ummm...

YOU might want to look at those…because you are wrong, bub…

You may not like what I have to say...but somebody has to say it...

by gatorhippy on Aug 12, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ummm

No he’s not. Look it up hippy.

by Dauntless12 on Aug 12, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Already did...

Last season…Chicky Bowl was seventh in total ratings for the bowl season with no other games to compete with…

Compare that to the Outback that was fourth overall in a crowded Jan 1 time slot and placed it ahead of even two BCS bowls…

In addition…CBS topped the regular season and CCGs with it’s SEC package despite only broadcasting 15 games…

Meanwhile, ABC and it’s multi-conference package was far behind even though it televised twice as many games…

You may not like what I have to say...but somebody has to say it...

by gatorhippy on Aug 12, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone crunched the numbers and found that between 2002 and 2009 (lost decade years!), FSU had the most positive impact, on average, to its bowl television ratings. That’s #1. The rest of the top five, in order: Texas, Notre Dame, Michigan, and Ohio State. Oh, and that does not include last year’s Chick-Fil-A bowl, which was the highest rated non-BCS game on ESPN and scored that bowl’s highest TV ratings ever. Unless you think people were tuning in for traditional power South Carolina (a school, incidentally, that otherwise had an aggregate negative impact on bowl TV ratings between 2002 and 2009).

by whodoes on Aug 12, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Just because I increase the length of a turd...Doesn't mean it isn't still a turd...

Fully expect the Music City featuring TSC/UK to garner better ratings than Wake/UK for example…which is all those numbers say…that TSC can increase the ratings of a bowl from the previous year…and the bulk of those where the biggest gains are seen are in bowls like the Music City and the Emerald…

Slive is about increasing the size of the footprint in order to increase the SEC’s command in new areas…not deepening the existing footprint through increased concentration as that isn’t what will trigger renegotiation of the TV contracts…

It’s no coincidence that he has increased the SEC’s revenue stream 800% over his 8 years at the wheel…and another 800% is undoubtedly the goal for the next 8…

You may not like what I have to say...but somebody has to say it...

by gatorhippy on Aug 13, 2011 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let's talk after the expansion issue is decided

Your name tells me you’re biased, and your vulgar analogies tell me you are a poor representative of the team you support. Let me guess….you never attended UF and became a fan during the Tebow years, right? C’mon, don’t lie. Your posts give you away.

by Dauntless12 on Aug 13, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awwww...what's wrong, little buddy?

Taking your proverbial ball and heading home since you don’t have any refutation to that?

Instead, you’d just rather make a lame attack on me personally, huh?

It’s okay…buck up!

You may not like what I have to say...but somebody has to say it...

by gatorhippy on Aug 14, 2011 6:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

My initial reaction to the FSU suggestion was the same as yours, gatorhippy, . . .

. . . but I soon learned it was shortsighted of me to judge the Seminoles strictly on the size of Tallahassee and its location within the existing SEC footprint. Florida State remains a national brand, and would draw eyeballs not presently focused on SEC football. For that reason, the Tribe must be taken seriously as an expansion target.

By the way, I know the allusion in your 2:09 p.m. comment was to Chief Osceola planting the spear at midfield, but I trust you’re equally aware that the term you used has a derogatory meaning in a different context that likely was the first to occur to many readers. If you could bear in mind how certain phrases might be misinterpreted, I’d be most appreciative, so as to avoid unintended offense.

Thanks for your understanding, and for your kind compliments.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice read but not even a mention of

Mizzou? This is the state that gave you Road House and The Outlaw Josey Wales (culture fit!!!!!).

We don’t have a big national following but we’ve had good football the last few years, and good basketball usually. Strong following in a state with 6+ million people, Kansas City, St Louis, good academics, and great potential for growing the athletics program if we were in the SEC.

by medloh on Aug 12, 2011 5:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Fair point, medloh.

I assure you, no slight was intended. However, when Missouri originally was mentioned as a possible SEC expansion target, I wrote an article devoted to the Tigers specifically, which generated much discussion, went a long way toward changing my mind upon the subject, and (I thought) addressed the need for focusing on Mizzou. I apologize if any offense was given; your points are good ones, and I thank you for joining in the conversation.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Being an FSU fan...

I don’t know how I feel about this. While one part of me would love to see this happen, I don’t know if I want it to happen quiet yet. Jimbo Fisher has got things going and would like for him to be able have another year or so before making a jump, which obviously he would if this happens.

As far as recruiting goes, I think that is a mute point. Even though FSU is in the middle of the SEC “footprint” Fisher and his staff have done an excellent job of recruiting the last 2 years. Currently 11 of their 2012 committments are all in the ESPNU 150. No other school has that many. This isn’t including the 2011 class FSU hauled in.

As far as conferences would go I think if FSU and A&M joined they should be added to SEC West and if VT and Clemson joined (or any of the teams sitting closer to the Atlantic) then they should just be added to the SEC East. Of course FSU going to the SEC West would make things really interesting in my house since my wife is a Bama fan and all my in-laws are from Tuscaloosa!

He bleeds Garnet and Gold, She bleeds Crimson and White. AND THEY BOTH HATE ORANGE! GO NOLES!! ROLL TIDE!!

by gonolesrolltide on Aug 12, 2011 6:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Reply to vineyarddawg

Thanks for the politeness, and with all due respect I would never expect you to understand. FSU has had to fight it’s way to respect the hard way, without the SEC. FSU fans have receive abuse from SEC fans for decades. Many like I, have no love for the SEC and if my school chooses to subject itself to the conference and closer contact to the likes of Florida, or to Auburn and LSU (both who black-listed FSU when it joined the ACC and spurned the SEC), I see no point in supporting that.

I have a resented the SEC most my life, so to me, FSU joining the SEC would be like George Bailey taking the money from Mr Potter. I would never feel the same about my school.

FSU is good where it is right now, pitfalls and all. I think the SEC leadership senses a momentum change and is trying to stay ahead of it. FSU alums worked against it, the last time the SEC came callin and prevailed, so why not again!

by SeminoleDan80 on Aug 12, 2011 8:46 PM EDT reply actions  

As for the FSU fans who are all for jumping to the SEC

Penny wise and pound foolish….I look forward to hearing you complain

by SeminoleDan80 on Aug 12, 2011 8:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Better to be a king in a dump than a pauper in a palace, right?

Besides, you realize this is all just massive speculation? The Aggies just want away from a conference that is folding and want away from Texas – they may not even get in the SEC……

"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker

by tankertoad on Aug 12, 2011 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dan, the pathway to a championship in the SEC will, admittedly, be MUCH more difficult

However, the game is changing and schools who try and maintain the status quo could find themselves on the outside looking in. As the game migrates toward super conferences, there will be no safer haven than the SEC. (In a “super conference” scenario I’m concerned a weakened ACC might have difficulty maintaining AQ status, which would make it nearly impossible to get a national championship game bid.)

Florida State already has exceptional facilities, a nationally recognized brand image, and a coaching staff that is recruiting as well (or better) than any other. With SEC television revenue the Seminoles could expect to improve at an even faster rate than has been realized since Coach Bowden’s departure.

Serious question: What is your affinity for the ACC?

by Dauntless12 on Aug 12, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

that napoleon thing again.........everybody hates the SEC right now, because good old tOSU and USC west are banned for eternity while the SEC wins and NC every year in a lot of sports

besides, I could care less about the SEC as long as we keep our traditions that have been around since before the SEC. And I really hate playing Tech at the end of every year. The cocktail party, Iron Bowl, Egg Bowl, Vandy sucking, these are things that have been and will continue to be regardless of super conferences or the logo SEC. The SEC just figured out first and quick how to generate a lot of money, tv interest, and NC runs. And it’s fairly competitive. The Big 12 fired itself by becoming the Texas – Oklahoma conference. They dont have the match ups, so they dont have the interest.

"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker

by tankertoad on Aug 12, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Excellent point, Dauntless12.

The same sort of barking came from within the SEC at the time of the expansion to twelve teams two decades ago. With the advent of the then-novel eight-game conference schedule and conference championship game, many within the league griped that the SEC had just bumped up its strength of schedule to such an extent that it had taken itself out of national championship contention.

For the record, the SEC proceeded to win national championships in 1992 (Alabama), 1996 (Florida), 1998 (Tennessee), 2003 (LSU), 2006 (Florida), 2007 (LSU), 2008 (Florida), 2009 (Alabama), and 2010 (Auburn), while producing undefeated Auburn teams in 1993 and 2004, and while sending other SEC champions to the designated national championship game, as well. So much for that theory.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

CFA was 7th overall

That’s the point. Where would the CFA have ranked WITHOUT FSU? Consider these quotes:

“As you could guess, some of the biggies are the best at maximizing TV ratings for bowls – Florida State, Texas, Notre Dame, Michigan, and Ohio State are the top 5.”

(Most other years) “bowls benefited from inviting the Seminoles, earning a total of 11.05 share points more than their average without Florida State.”

Rare is the bowl committee that regrets inviting Florida State because the television ratings are usually better than they could have expected to achieve by inviting another team.

Source: http://thenationalchampionshipissue.blogspot.com/2010/01/bowls-television-ratings-three-ways.html

by Dauntless12 on Aug 12, 2011 10:01 PM EDT reply actions  

That was well put Kyle

i’m not necessarily sure that college football is quite so provincial. You did allude to this with reference to Oklahoma, but I think that if the question of the latitudes and longitudes of our prospective new viewers is what guides us, we risk missing the forest for the trees.

Everybody wants to watch Oklahoma.
Everybody wants to watch Florida State.

Which is why I go with a simple brand name analysis. And Va Tech fails my brand name analysis…but this is partially because I actively dislike them with their hideous colors, their johnny-come-lately fanbase, and their laughably gauche entrance song “tradition”, which kind of makes me feel sorry for them.

Back to the lecture at hand: if my brand name analysis doesn’t produce a clear cut favorite (i.e. we can’t pull FSU or Oklahoma), then brand names of equal or nearly equal valuation should be pro’d or con’d on the basis of the provincial considerations you nicely articulated.

But then I still wouldn’t want Va. Tech and those hideous brown uniforms in my league. Plus, we already have our quota of cow towns in the SEC. The addition of Blacksburg would put us over the limit.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Aug 13, 2011 1:20 AM EDT reply actions  

All good points, kidbourbon.

Thanks, as always, for joining in the conversation.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Affinity for the ACC

A couple of things…I like the pauper in a palace phrase…it’s better that the rule in hell, serve in heaven phase that keeps coming to mind.

My affinity for the ACC…they approached FSU…not the other way around…vs SEC that FSU begged repeated ly for admission..only to repeatedly get kicked in the teeth. The SEC only wanted FSU when the ACC came calling.

The ACC has been very good to FSU…vs the SEC who has disrepected and heaped abuse on FSU.

Finally, true…I really don’t like the SEC almost as much my feelings for the Gators…… and as I said in my original post…UGa is the lone exception to that dislike…doesn’t hurt that my mom is a UGA alum…but she pulled for the Noles.

by SeminoleDan80 on Aug 13, 2011 6:46 AM EDT reply actions  

I respect your opinion

But I also disagree. I’ve been around a little while and I don’t recall FSU begging to join the SEC. As I recall, the SEC really wanted the Seminoles in 1992, and instead FSU chose to join the ACC. That was a mistake, in my opinion.

The ACC has NOT been good to FSU. Just look at the schedule that the conference put together this year. The flagship team’s reward for hosting the number one team in the nation is a difficult road game the following week at Clemson. Not to mention, sending the Noles a thousand miles from home for a midweek game at BC on four days rest. ACC footbal is and always has been envious of Florida State. They’ve done the Seminoles no favors of any sort! Don’t even get me started on game officiating!

I don’t mean to be argumentative, but the tone of your post seems to assume that FSU can maintain the status quo and stay in the ACC. That appears to be a naive stance. The super conference scenario is coming fast. The ACC could lose teams (maybe Clemson to the SEC and others) and FSU would preside over an ACC with even less regard than it has now (which isn’t much). How long before the BCS formula is tweaked and the ACC loses AQ status? That would make the winner of the ACC about as relevant as the winner of the MWC.

More than ever college football is a business. I don’t necessarily like that fact, but it is true nonetheless. In business a company can’t stand still (i.e., be content with the status quo) because someone will overtake and pass them. FSU needs to be doing the overtaking, not falling into obscurity by staying in an obsolete conference.

by Dauntless12 on Aug 13, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I agree that the ACC has not been very good to FSU

Heck, just recently our soccer coach got in trouble for sitting players in the ACC tourney so they’d be rested for the NCAA tourney. The current football schedule sends FSU to Clemson right after playing OU (and after Clem plays Aub) – for a conf that has a weak reputation, why not allow your big name teams to prepare for the big OOC games, instead of scheduling the most important divisional game the very next week? The ACC officiating is often pretty poor, too. Ad nauseum.

I disagree that it was a mistake to join the ACC in 1991. The weaker schedule helped our 90s dynasty, which will forever rank among the best streaks in CFB history (14 consecutive Top 5 finishes). And, believe it or not, the ACC used to earn more money than the SEC. Again, recent leadership has seen that go down the drain. The ACC still has potential, which if lived up to would make it a great conf. I just don’t have confidence in the leadership to realize that potential. Ergo, I’m all for leaving.

by Invictus13 on Aug 14, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's a fair characterization of the course of events, SeminoleDan80.

The Southeastern Conference was formed in the early 1930s, and, after Georgia Tech and Tulane left the league in the mid-1960s, conference membership remained static for nearly three decades. The SEC didn’t reject Florida State; the SEC rejected the idea of conference expansion until presented with a reason for expanding (namely, Roy Kramer’s exploitation of the basketball-inspired loophole in NCAA rules that allowed a twelve-team league to host a conference championship game). When the SEC decided to expand, the league looked to Tallahassee, and the Tribe said no.

Let’s not confuse who rejected whom. It’s not the SEC’s fault that Florida State submitted a job application during a hiring freeze, and it certainly isn’t the SEC’s fault that the ’Noles accepted a lower-paying position with another company when an employment offer was extended before the ink was dry on the first want ad published by the conference in nearly 60 years.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just love how.....

Everybody thinks FSU would all of sudden be scrubs and not win any games if they joined the SEC. Even though they are currently pulling better recruits than any SEC school AND have a head coach who has the mentality and ability to have them competing at a high level year in and year out. Guess people forget that Jimbo Fisher worked for Saban while he was at LSU and has brought that work ethic to Tallahassee. Oh yeah, FSU was 2-0 vs SEC schools last year. Please don’t be mistaken in thnking that FSU is going to roll over and play dead if they join the SEC.

The last decade sucked b/c, as much as I love the man, B. Bowden did nothing good for the program and was unwilling to adjust to the way the game is played today. Fisher turned it around in his first year. Now he’s in year 2, with 18 starters returning from both sides of the ball, an experienced QB, and more depth than he had last year.

And people are right, the ACC has never liked FSU and the BS scheduling year in and out proves that. A lot will told about where FSU is on September 17th against OU. If they win or lise by less than TD, then they’re right where we FSU fans would love them to be. If they have the same result as least year in Norman, then they obviously still have work to do. Luckily they got a schedule like most of other SEC/ Big 10/ PAC 12 schools their first 2 games against some powder puffs, which should give them time to workout the kinks before OU.

He bleeds Garnet and Gold, She bleeds Crimson and White. AND THEY BOTH HATE ORANGE! GO NOLES!! ROLL TIDE!!

by gonolesrolltide on Aug 13, 2011 2:16 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Did anyone say that? Most of what I’ve been reading just says that FSU would have a harder time in the SEC than in the ACC (and therefore would have a harder time winning championships and getting to the best bowl games), which is not really arguable.

"It'll only be reviewed because the guys up in the booth want to watch it a few times too." AJ's one-handed catch at Colorado

by AdamLilly on Aug 13, 2011 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

It might not be on this board

But people have said that FSU would lose most its games if it joined the SEC. Most of those people are probably trolls, but they are here and there.

I agree that it would be tougher in the SEC, but the recent seasons had by uf, LSU, Bama and Aub suggest that FSU could still have some great seasons. And, honestly, those seasons would probably feel more special because the competition was tougher.

by Invictus13 on Aug 14, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

AdamLilly is right; don't mistake us for a message board.

No one seriously thinks that Florida State wouldn’t have been a force in the SEC from the late ‘80s through 2000, but it’s naive to believe the Seminoles would have enjoyed the same run of dominance in the ’90s in the SEC that they had in the ACC. Likewise, while 2010 was a fine season for the Tribe, one year is a very small sample size; after a down decade, I believe the FSU faithful would do well to recall that a lot of guys have won one in a row.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know I'm rejoining this conversation late in the game, . . .

. . . but my thanks go out to everyone for the great discussion here. I am much obliged, and I welcome our new guests from other schools. I’m looking forward to more quality interaction between our respective fan bases.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 15, 2011 8:23 PM EDT reply actions  

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