Why the Auburn Tigers Still Deserve the Death Penalty
After Wednesday night’s HBO special reporting that the Auburn Tigers were paying players at least as recently as 2007, I’m sure some of you expected me to excoriate the Plainsmen. After all, I hate Auburn, and I have called for Georgia’s oldest rival to receive the death penalty, so this would seem like a good time to rip into the Orange and Blue, now wouldn’t it?
Well, I’m not going to do that.
Instead, I’m going to write about the SMU Mustangs.
As painstakingly detailed last December in the excellent documentary "Pony Excess," Southern Methodist operated an ongoing pay-for-play scheme over a period of several years, repeatedly running afoul of the NCAA in the process and eventually forcing the body governing intercollegiate athletics to levy the ultimate sanction by shutting down the Mustangs’ football program altogether.
SMU was hit with NCAA probation five times from 1974 to 1985. The last set of sanctions prior to the death penalty included a two-year bowl ban and a one-year banishment from appearing on live television. The Pony Express eventually was barred from competing on the gridiron because Southern Methodist earned "repeat offender" status by committing two major violations within five years, with the second infraction coming while the school still was on probation from the first.
The straw that broke the camel’s back was the revelation that, in 1985 and 1986, thirteen players received a total of $61,000 in payments from boosters. Those funds were paid in increments ranging from $50 to $725 per month, taking place over a period during which Southern Methodist already was on NCAA probation. The death penalty was the only punishment left for the infractions committee to hand down, as the 1987 sanctions made SMU the most-penalized program in Division I history. Counting the imposition of the death penalty, the Mustangs had been punished by the NCAA eight times.
Say . . . something just occurred to me. Maybe this is relevant to Auburn, after all!
The Tigers were put on probation for illegal recruiting inducements in 1957 and again in 1958, suffering a four-year ban on television and postseason appearances. In 1979, Auburn’s football and men’s basketball programs were placed on probation for extra benefits and inducements including automobile use, cash payments, clothing, entertainment, lodging, and travel. The football team was banned from appearing on television or in bowl games in 1979 and 1980. The infractions committee specifically stated that the Alabama Polytechnic Institute’s apparent commitment to avoiding future improprieties was a factor that reduced the punishment the Plainsmen otherwise would have received.
Eighteen months later, the existing probation (including the TV and bowl bans) was extended through the 1981 football season when it was determined that an Auburn booster had paid cash to a recruit in order to obtain his signature on a letter of intent. A recruit’s complementary football tickets were purchased at more than face value, and not only recruits, but also their families and one of their girlfriends, were provided with food, lodging, and transportation.
On November 18, 1991, the Tiger basketball and tennis programs were sanctioned for providing extra benefits and improper recruiting inducements. Cash loans, lodging, meals, transportation, and the use of automobiles all were provided, resulting in a public reprimand, increased reporting requirements, and forfeiture of victories. The NCAA determined that Auburn had committed unethical conduct by certifying that the school was in compliance when the athletic department knew it was not.
52 days earlier, on September 27, the Montgomery Advertiser had given front page coverage of Eric Ramsey’s allegation that he had received cash from Auburn athletics representatives, in violation of NCAA rules. Specifically, he reported that he had been paid $300 per month and had received an unsecured $9,200 loan from Pat Dye, the Plainsmen’s pantsless head coach and athletic director. Ramsey’s assertions were bolstered by the similar claims of fellow former Tiger players Vincent Harris and Alex Strong, the latter of whom said an Orange and Blue assistant coach had paid him "a couple of thousand a year." Oh, also, Ramsey had tapes that proved his allegations, and, in October 1992, Coach Dye finally admitted that he knew about the improper payments to Ramsey.
The NCAA sent a formal letter of inquiry in November 1992, the same month that Coach Dye resigned. The resulting investigation determined that the athletic director and head coach knew Ramsey had received extra benefits but failed to report them. Specific allegations concerning identifiable cash payments were substantiated in the investigation, and, in August 1993, the Tigers were hit with a one-year television ban, a two-year bowl ban, and a delay of the start date for the probationary period until the previous probation levied upon the basketball and tennis teams was completed. Unethical conduct and a lack of institutional control were found, resulting in a public reprimand and a requirement of annual reports.
That latest probation ran through November 1995, during the coaching tenure of Terry Bowden. Although he certified to the NCAA throughout his time in the so-called Loveliest Village that he was unaware of any unreported violations occurring at Auburn, Coach Bowden stated on tape that Tiger boosters were giving players cash payments in the thousands of dollars while the program was on probation. In 2004, although the institution avoided being convicted of major rules violations, the Plainsmen saw their basketball program given two years of probation because an AAU coach acting as a representative of the school wired over $3,000 to one recruit and arranged to get an automobile for another. The infractions committee stated at that time:
As required by NCAA legislation for any institution involved in a major infractions case, Auburn University is subject to the provisions of NCAA Bylaw 19.5.2.3, concerning repeat violators for a five-year period beginning on the effective date of the penalties in this case, April 27, 2004.
In pertinent part, the cited rule reads as follows:
19.5.2.3.2 Repeat-Violator Penalties In addition to the penalties identified for a major violation, the minimum penalty for a repeat violator, subject to exceptions authorized by the Committee on Infractions on the basis of specifically stated reasons, may include any or all of the following:
(a) The prohibition of some or all outside competition in the sport involved in the latest major violation for one or two sports seasons and the prohibition of all coaching staff members in that sport from involvement directly or indirectly in any coaching activities at the institution during that period. . . .
As a repeat offender, the Tigers were at risk for increased sanctions if another major infractions case arose during the probationary period, which ran through April 27, 2009. While the NCAA already was investigating allegations regarding the recruitment of Cameron Newton, Trovon Reed, and Greg Robinson, these latest allegations concern events purported to have occurred through and including 2007.
Some of the claims made by the four former football players whose allegations were reported by HBO involve a time period outside the NCAA’s statute of limitations, although there is an exception to that statute for "blatant" violations, and a book bag full of cash would seem to qualify. If even one of these players is telling the truth, the payments alleged to have been made were made during the five years following the Plainsmen’s last probation, so NCAA Bylaw 19.5.2.3 ostensibly would apply.
Auburn has been subjected to NCAA sanctions seven times. The next punishment meted out to the Tigers by the association---assuming such penalties are forthcoming, of course---will tie Auburn with SMU as the most oft-pushed Division I program.
I don’t know if Raven Gray, Stanley McClover, Chaz Ramsey, and Troy Reddick are telling the truth, just as I don’t know whether the other alleged recruiting improprieties being investigated by the NCAA will bear fruit. The presumption of innocence attaches even to programs with long histories of improper recruiting inducements who currently are the subject of much speculation on several fronts regarding claims of improper conduct that sounds suspiciously like the sort of stuff Auburn has been doing literally for longer than I have been alive. All this could still be one hellacious coincidence.
If it isn’t, though, the NCAA simply has no other choice than to drop the hammer on the Plainsmen the way it dropped the hammer on the Mustangs nearly a quarter of a century ago. Since the second series meeting in the Deep South’s Oldest Rivalry in 1894, the Georgia Bulldogs have met the Auburn Tigers on the gridiron in every autumn except four, and those interruptions resulted from the death of a player from injuries sustained in a game (1897), World War I (1917 and 1918), and World War II (1943). The next such break may occur because the NCAA orders the Orange and Blue to suspend their football program for at least a season.
If---and, admittedly, this remains a big "if"---any of the player-paying allegations leveled during the HBO special are proven to be true, especially if any of the allegations raised by the Cecil Newton investigation are established as factually accurate, Auburn deserves the death penalty. Should it turn out that there is fire underlying all this smoke, the SMU precedent will be directly on point in the Plainsmen’s case.
Go ‘Dawgs!
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Outstanding analysis...
I think all of us, including those used to parsing through codes, forget the “blatant violation” exception to the 5 year SOL.
Backpacks full of cash, and being shopped (or, more specifically, indicating a willingness to play ball in a recruiting war) would certainly seem to fall within the purview of that exception.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not; a sense of humor to console him for what he is." -Sir Francis Bacon
by Stuck in the Plains on Mar 31, 2011 12:22 AM EDT reply actions
Well done, wow!
Bama's Pluck and Grit have Writ Her Name in Crimson Flame
by TideFanAtlanta on Mar 31, 2011 12:32 AM EDT reply actions
Those of us hoping for justice
may be very disappointed when all the nuts fall to the ground. The NCAA seems to be as corrupt as Auburn.
The NCAA is making more money now than before
Corruption inevitably follows
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
I Corinthians 9:24
by Southern Dawg on Mar 31, 2011 8:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess you didn't get to watch the HBO special?
The colleges and conferences see the money. They had the UGA president on camera squirming over it. (But at least he had the guts to be on the damn report.)
Thanks, everyone.
By the way, “oft-pushed” should be “oft-punished.” Sigh. I’m really working on getting the typos under control; your patience is appreciated.
Go 'Dawgs!
Terry Bowden has Wayne Halls Black Book:
http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2011-03-30/auburns-mess-has-an-obvious-solution
Bama's Pluck and Grit have Writ Her Name in Crimson Flame
by TideFanAtlanta on Mar 31, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
This has been up for 8 hours..
and no one in the “family” has stopped by to invoke the Haterz defense? That’s more shocking than anything I heard last night. (For what it’s worth, I doubt anyone here will deny hating Abuurn.)
Good stuff as usual, Kyle.
Regardless of whether or not the death penalty is "fair" or "just"
I oppose any action that would prevent us from meeting (and therefore having the opportunity to defeat) Auburn on the gridiron. The only kind of Plainsmeagle tears I appreciate are the ones they cry after we beat them.
Leaving insightful football commentary and analysis to other people since 2006.
Georgia fans can afford such an opinion
Your school has a comparable history of success in the conference and nationally.
South Carolina has never been sanctioned for major recruiting violations, and we have to go head to head for Auburn for recruits every year. At the very least, their “success” was unfairly purchased. More likely, they are continuing to cheat with current recruits. How are we to achieve sustained recruiting success against such odds?
If these allegations are true, Auburn deserves the death penalty, and the decades of wandering through the football desert likely to follow.
"They've just discovered a new use for sheep over there at Clemson... wool." - Lewis Grizzard
by GwinnettGamecock on Mar 31, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
If it actually happens, it will kill the program.
No football for at least a year and getting kicked out of the SEC will turn them into SMU, a sad little program in a sad little conference.
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm ok with that.
Though I don’t think they would be kicked out of the SEC. Not only is there too much history, but there isn’t an obvious replacement. They would likely be Kentucky. The program ceiling shifts from BCS bowls in a great year to 8-4/9-3 in a great year.
"They've just discovered a new use for sheep over there at Clemson... wool." - Lewis Grizzard
by GwinnettGamecock on Mar 31, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
A&M. The Big 12 is going to split sooner or later anyway.
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Sold. Again, I'm ok with that.
Auburn can fight it out with Southern Miss, Houston, and East Carolina for “King of Hill” in CUSA.
"They've just discovered a new use for sheep over there at Clemson... wool." - Lewis Grizzard
by GwinnettGamecock on Mar 31, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
And Central Florida. I heard they even won a bowl game.
Sorry, but it was too easy.
"They've just discovered a new use for sheep over there at Clemson... wool." - Lewis Grizzard
by GwinnettGamecock on Mar 31, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow.
A South Carolina fan just talked trash to me about my team’s lack of success in a bowl game. I don’t know that I’ve ever felt lower than I do right now!
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on Mar 31, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's okay...
we’re a basketball school now./midmajored
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
by DavetheDawg on Mar 31, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Auburn Delenda Est
As far as I’m concerned, the NCAA should raze the program and salt the earth.
Sir, I expect you need contact your doctor and see if he will increase your medication. You rail on about Auburn, KNOWING in the back of your mind that such behavior is abundant in the SEC, and your precious alumni are just as bad as those around the league. “Preesin’ flesh” has existed for years. My father attended Georgia, and I have always been a Dawg fan whenever they played anyone except AU. Your rancid, envious, jealous column that calls for the death of a institution makes me wonder what they did to you personally. This anger you display says so much about your character, you might want to reel it in a bit. I think the annual Florida floggings have twisted you into something you didn’t plan on being.
Finally, someone came with the "everyone does it" defense.
While I assume boosters are quietly taking care of players at every major school, I do not think they are all systematically paying players as Auburn has for decades. Delude yourself all you like, chalk it up to “haterz” or whatever, but Auburn is NOT like everyone else.
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
well, its interesting that t kyle's post is guided by logic and facts
and your rebuttal is fueled mainly by emotion and descriptive adjectives and a noticeable lack of substance.
in fact, rather than rebut the mayor’s arguments you offer a litany of ad hominems that include but are not constrained to 1) he is physically ill 2) unconsciously tormented 3) equivalent in sin 4) personally aggrieved 5) overwhelmed by emotion 6) a victim of abuse at the hands of Urban Meyer. none of these points, even as amusing as they may seem given the manner in which you present them, address a single item in the mayor’s rather compelling argument above.
basically, your only argument seems to be that “everyone else is doing it” which is not simply disingenuous but carries with it an assumption of guilt on the part of the party you are arguing for. thus supplying credence to the mayor’s argument and making your own allegations seem not just foolish, but amusingly ironic in context.
auburn may in fact be NOT like everyone else, but your posts not only fall far short of demonstrating this to the most objective observer, but they also succeed in adding a bit more credence to the general perception that you profess is grievously in error. i hate auburn. and you have given me one more delightful example to show the world why.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
kleph
Your word processor is dandy. I am now in my place, on top of a stump chewing on a weed, looking for love. What brings this hate to you professor? ad hominems? That was a good one, I had to Google to understand. What in the Hell are you compensating for? I got an idea…
by Bill Eidson on Mar 31, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
and your rebuttal to my point consists of tepid sarcasm
feel free to drop in a cogent argument at any time.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
Actually, many of the posters here are lawyers and other professionals...
…and they’re just used to writing like that.
Will
i am not a lawyer
and i strongly resent the association.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
i'm not sure i'm a professional either
i’m sure they get paid better than i do.
/doesn’tmakeobviousauburnjibebutdoesreally
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
Lots of SEC fans went to real schools.
"They've just discovered a new use for sheep over there at Clemson... wool." - Lewis Grizzard
by GwinnettGamecock on Mar 31, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone does it
Unless your Vandy or in the Ivy League it does. Alumni want a winner, and the most dangerous backers never set foot in a classroom. Good Ole Boys with money. If your 2-10 in play….you just shook the wrong hand. This is so interesting to see that people still have Holier than thou attitudes. To quote the great poets of Outkast:
I know you’d like to thank your s*** don’t stank
But lean a little bit closer
See roses really smell like POO-OO-OO
Yeah, roses really smell like POO-OO-OO
by Bill Eidson on Mar 31, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Everybody indeed wants a winner.
Not everyone is willing to sell their proverbial soul to do so. I have always contended, and the facts bear this out as Kyle so eloquently wrote, that Auburn has cheated in every decade since the 1950s. So the question, in my mind, is not whether Auburn cheats. The question is have they ever been honest. I really have my doubts.
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
by DavetheDawg on Mar 31, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not simply boosters.
Two members of the Board of Trustees are in the middle of a banking scandal, along with a former (incredibly crooked) coach and a guy who bribed half the state legislature. These are not rogue, out of control boosters. These are men with deep ties to the Auburn athletic department. Even Alabama doesn’t have that kind of corruption at the top.
And really, Outkast?
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey now,
leave Outkast out of it! They’ve done nothing wrong!
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, contrare...
That would be Hey Ya!, IMO.
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
by DavetheDawg on Mar 31, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
My apologies.
I would still prefer people not quote Outkast as a form of argumentation though.
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You forgot to call everybody H8TRZ...
… and possibly to include a homophobic remark questioning the sexuality of everyone who’s not an Auburn fan.
by vineyarddawg on Mar 31, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone does it
I like it! Baseless opinions….I would suggest two things my friend 1. Prove that “everyone does it” with facts or 2. stop talking.
Either one would suffice.
www.DIY-Fitness.com A fitness site for those who hate diets
To recap:
You question Kyle’s sanity, then immediately resort to the “Everybody else is doing it, so that makes it okay” defense (a defense that didn’t work on my Father when I was six, and it won’t work on the NCAA now).
You then bring up the point that you’ve always been a Dawg fan whenever they played anyone except AU, a point that carries absolutely no relevance to the article at hand whatsoever.
Next, you describe the column with three adjectives, rancid, envious, and jealous, but give no supporting evidence for why the column fits the definition for any of those things (I could refer to myself as King hailtogeorgia, but don’t expect anyone to bow to me anytime soon).
Penultimately, you imply that the anger displayed by Kyle (something for which I still see no supporting evidence in this column) speaks ill of his character. You’re half right…the article does say something about his character…it supports what all of us here at DawgSports know to be true; namely, Kyle is level-headed and logical, refrains from ill-advised slander, and instead relies on facts and evidence to drive his points home. Unfortunately, based on your comment, we can’t say the same of you.
Finally, you state that you think the annual Florida floggings have taken their toll on Kyle. I fail to see how Georgia’s record against Florida is even the slightest bit germane to the topic at hand, but then again, Georgia has beaten Auburn four out of the last five years and six out of the last nine, so I’m sure you’re familiar with this feeling of inferiority.
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
To recap
I swear i did not realize that this sight was frequented by pompous asses. Thank you for grading me and setting me straight. Call your Mommie and brag. I stand corrected. Auburn is bad, Auburn must die. Long live Bear. Nick sits at the right hand side. This is the most unbiased and rewarding website ever and ever. i wish I were in Athens.
by Bill Eidson on Mar 31, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Calling me a pompous ass is a bit harsh, now, isn't it?
I simply took your points and refuted them. A pompous ass, on the other hand, would have corrected your numerous spelling and grammar mistakes, such as: using the word “expect” when you actually meant “suspect”, using “a” when you should’ve used “an”, using “your” instead of “you’re”, and “sight” instead of “site”.
Seriously, since you’re (see how that’s done?) into quoting lyrics from popular songs, I’ll paraphrase a quote from a popular movie, Billy Madison: Mr. [Eidson], what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having [read] it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
See, that’s being a pompous ass.
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As long as you don't call me a pompous ass for no reason,
we have nothing to worry about! :-)
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
x
I did not call you a pompous ass
by Bill Eidson100 on Mar 31, 2011 1:22 PM
(See what I did there?)
by vineyarddawg on Mar 31, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
if by "pompous asses" you mean
people who counter your points with reasonable objections, yes i would have to say that aptly describes Dawg Sports. and it’s certainly the reason this Alabama fan frequents it’s comment threads.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
"I wish I were in Athens"
Ah, the silent, unspoken words of every Auburn undergrad.
by JoeDawg15 on Mar 31, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Do your part, everyone...
make it green.
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
by DavetheDawg on Mar 31, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Envy and jealousy, indeed.
Of the various traits among Auburn fans and alumni, good and bad, I am convinced that this truth is very nearly the most widely shared.
Rec’d. For. Truth.
It is fair to say that almost every school has had something happen they are not proud of
Jim Harrick comes to mind. But we didn’t defend him!?! We didn’t act like it was all OK!?! We didn’t play the “everybody else is doing it too” card!?! We fired his A$$.
I think it is Auburn’s willingness to happily ignore the facts to get that NC that is really kind of sad and desperate. Their willingness to put Cam Newton and Nick Fairley on a pedestal is embarrassing.
I was initially confused by the Gene Czick hire. Now, and this is just my opinion, it seems that they hired a front man instead of a coach. Someone the power brokers could manipulate more easily than TT. And while I realize that much of what was in the HBO special was during the TT years, there was no indication he was complicit in it, and plenty of indications throughout his tenure that he was on the wrong side of the powers that be.
This will end badly for Auburn. Unfortunately, I think the reputation of all the SEC schools will be tainted by their stink, deservedly so or not.
by hbtd on Mar 31, 2011 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Standing Ovation
Jim Harrick comes to mind. But we didn’t defend him!?! We didn’t act like it was all OK!?! We didn’t play the "everybody else is doing it too" card!?! We fired his A$$.
I think it is Auburn’s willingness to happily ignore the facts to get that NC that is really kind of sad and desperate. Their willingness to put Cam Newton and Nick Fairley on a pedestal is embarrassing.
This is what bugs me the most about the whole situation. Rather than “this sucks and I hope it’s not true”, the Auburn faithful turn to the “H8RZ” and “everybody’s doing it” rather than just accepting what is obvious to everybody else. Nobody will think less of a person that roots for an institution that has done wrongs as long as they acknowledge it. It’s this constant denial that just annoys the crap out of me. We sure as hell didn’t condone Jim Harrick’s behavior nor would we condone Mark Richt if he were accused of the things that have clearly happened at Auburn. Sure, we would defend him because that’s what fans do, but we would at least acknowledge that he did wrong. That is what separates Auburn fans (and to a lesser extent, Ohio State fans) from the rest of the sane beings out there.
http://hobnailboot.wordpress.com/
by AuditDawg on Mar 31, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
These four have zero proof, besides their words, and HBO admitted it.
And to be perfectly honest, these are not the four most upstanding individuals in the program. At least 20 other teammates of these men have said exactly the opposite, and yet no one gives a crap what they say. Junior Rosegreen said that the impala was purchased with a Pell Grant and did not cost $7000, yet neither you, nor HBO, care’s to show that. So, we’re insane because we ask for proof? Give me one singe cancelled check, bank statement, photo, email, anything, and I’ll admit there were problems. But for now, all you have is people’s words with no proof. So sure, I’m insane. And you were the one over at TET trying to be all nice about it.
Oklahoma State, world leader in soft zone defense and PBR tallboy consumption
by AUKingOState on Mar 31, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
And NIck Fairley was never accused of any wrongdoing, besides removing your QB his spine.
Oklahoma State, world leader in soft zone defense and PBR tallboy consumption
by AUKingOState on Mar 31, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Classy.
Braggadocio regarding a talented, yet damned dirty player. Color me not the least bit surprised.
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
Given that they described the same kind of pay-for-play system...
that got Dye canned and that many of the people involved with that system are still involved with the program, I know who I believe.
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Certainly some fair comments
I obviously had to be on my best behavior over at TET since it’s a sensitive subject. I try to keep my personal feelings to myself when I visit other sites because I’m honestly curious about how the conversation is going over there and don’t want to upset anybody.
I truly do get where you’re coming from, and I apologize if my “sane beings” comment has offended you. I understand that you want hardcore evidence and that’s certainly fair. However, at what point do you have to admit that there is a possibility that most of these things are true and that it’s really not a big conspiracy against Auburn? Auburn has a long storied history of paying players and running its program like the old Southwest Conference. The reputation is well earned and if you truly believe that the notion that former players accusing Auburn of paying them is bunk, then I don’t know what to tell you. It sure as heck doesn’t pass the sniff test for everybody outside of the greater Auburn-Opelika area.
My main point is that the “H8RZ” and “everybody does it” arguments seem to be in full force right now. Just because “everybody does it” doesn’t make it right is all I’m saying. I would just like to see common sense exercised and the Auburn faithful to quit pretending that this is some sort of hatchet job against them and acknowledge the fact that most of this is likely true. We sure as hell didn’t run from the facts when the Jim Harrick scandal happened nor did we run from the facts when the Jan Kemp academic scandal happened.
http://hobnailboot.wordpress.com/
I do not consider you H8RZ, which is the stupidest response in sports.
And i’ll admit right here, that yes, something with Cam was up. And unlike most at TET (where I do not post much), I don’t care. I can safely say, that I don’t care, I wanted the National Championship that bad. And no, that everybody does it does not make it right, I just want a single tangible piece of evidence.
Oklahoma State, world leader in soft zone defense and PBR tallboy consumption
by AUKingOState on Mar 31, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
speaking in complete seriousness and with zero intent to bait you
it is my belief that a great deal of the opprobrium for auburn amongst other fanbases is exemplified in your comment: “I can safely say, that I don’t care, I wanted the National Championship that bad.” as much as i enjoy the back and forth of the rivalry, my actual distaste for the program derives from this and this alone. the reaction of many auburn fans to the accusations that have emerged in the past months has only served to enforce this unapologetic commitment to winning.
the bottom line is that the scale of meltdown kyle paints above might appeal to your opponents’ sense of schadenfreude (and i’ll certainly admit to being guilty on this score) but, if it comes to pass, will have devastating repercussions on the division, the conference and the sport as a whole. none of which, even given my distaste for auburn, do i have any desire to see transpire.
personally, do i really give a damn if cam was paid? not really. he was, without a doubt the best player in college football and, with him, auburn had the most dominant team in the game. i would have felt unreservedly angry if alabama had faced the tigers in the iron bowl without him under center. past that, it’s not my problem. except that, if kyle’s prediction is on base – it is. and that disturbs me far more than than my distaste for all things auburn.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
by kleph on Mar 31, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You didn't want to bait me? Bs
First, I wasn’t responding to you at all. Second, what a bama fan thinks means less than nothing to me. Third, what am I supposed to say, give the chpionship back? We won it on the field, same way we beat you. Cam never actually got paid. If it’s ever proved he knew about it, we lose the entire last season. Nothing I can do about that now, but you will not stop me from enjoying the championship. And lastly, the players were all from the last regime. So, excuse me for wanting real evidence.
Oklahoma State, world leader in soft zone defense and PBR tallboy consumption
by AUKingOState on Mar 31, 2011 1:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
so you're gonna
honestly sit there and defend saying
I can safely say, that I don’t care, I wanted the National Championship that bad.
Its one thing to say “I just enjoyed the ride” but thats not what you said above. You implied that you didn’t care if he took money, the championship meant more. I don’t know a SINGLE fan from any school ( i currently live in FL) that would say that its ok a player was cheating for the sake of a NC. And I know quite a few Miami fans…
Im hoping we are all just taking that statement wrong..If you meant every word….then im a tad speechless.
www.DIY-Fitness.com A fitness site for those who hate diets
Ooooh.
/sits back
//grabs popcorn
///prepares to enjoy the war
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
no worries...there will be no war unless AUking responds
with anger…I just want to get a read on that comment cause its a crazy one. I asked every football fan in my office (about 30 or so) would the prescribe to this thinking….they all said no. Im just trying to see if he really believes his own words…
My guess his response will be..
Your (not you’re) some silly bammer….look at you’re (not your) name! Silly bammerz 28-27 WHAHOO CAMZ THE GREATZESTZ!! CHIZIK FOR DE HIEXMANS!!!
www.DIY-Fitness.com A fitness site for those who hate diets
AUking's response was understandably heated
but certainly not spiteful at the expense of reason. which is why i tried to reply in kind.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
honestly, no
because i actually think this is an point that should be better understood rather than simply resorted to as a means of vilification. i certainly disagree with the sentiment but i also think the reasons you and other auburn fans so strongly hold it needs examination.
if you look back at the history of the programs, and i mean the very early days, it’s the disagreement on this concept that dramatically shapes the origin of both programs. and the reasons for adhering to one point of view or the other were certainly not as clear as we like to think they are today.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
First, there will be no war
Now, to clarify that comment, do I condone cheating? Certainly not. I should have been more clear, do I care that there are accusations? No. But will the accusations reduce my enjoyment of last season? Not a chance. Yes, I wanted a national championship, more than anything, and don’t care if we are seen as dirty. If we are dirty is another thing entirely. If it is ever proven that Cam knew, or that these four “gentlemen” are correct, then our program deserves what will be coming. But as for now, you have a shady southern preacher (possibly the only one ever) and four players who blame Auburn for their lives. Where there’s smoke there is usually fire, and it may pan out that way. But to say a program deserves the death penalty, and to include a Bryant Gumble program that admitted it had no proof, as evidence why, destroys your entire argument. Is everyone doing it, probably. Does that make it in anyway acceptable, not at all. Will it ever stop? Probably not. And, kleph, I apologize if it seems like I was trying to insult you in anyway, i’m simply tired of defending baseless accusations today. And, if you’re looking for a war @bammer, simply head over to TET, i’m sure they will oblige you. I don’t post there too often, as their standard response is usually to call you a H8R, or attack you with the elusive
Your (not you’re) some silly bammer….look at you’re (not your) name! Silly bammerz 28-27 WHAHOO CAMZ THE GREATZESTZ!! CHIZIK FOR DE HIEXMANS!!!
Hopefully one day the truth will emerge, for better or worse, but for now I can’t sit here and say, “you know what, screw Auburn, how could I be so blind” based off of four players who couldn’t hack it and hate Auburn for that.
Oklahoma State, world leader in soft zone defense and PBR tallboy consumption
by AUKingOState on Mar 31, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
To me,
This is the only appropriate position an Auburn fan can take, except for the part where you accuse someone (T Kyle King, maybe?) of saying that Auburn deserves the death penalty on the basis of, inter alia, a Bryant Gumbel program that admitted it had no proof. I invite you to read the final paragraph in the original post.
what i'd like to do is set aside the tit for tat accusation and rebuttal
and concentrate on one point you make:
Now, to clarify that comment, do I condone cheating? Certainly not. I should have been more clear, do I care that there are accusations? No. But will the accusations reduce my enjoyment of last season? Not a chance. Yes, I wanted a national championship, more than anything, and don’t care if we are seen as dirty. If we are dirty is another thing entirely.
and lets agree from the start that all fans do not want to see their teams cheat from the simple reason it makes them succeptable to sanctions. the most extreme of which kyle outlines above.
then why is there a willing permissibility on the part of auburn fans to be perceived in this manner?
a few months ago i posted a tounge-in-cheek item about hating auburn over at the oregon ducks blog Addicted to Quack. despite fully intending the chaos that resulted, i did include the excepts from warren st. john’s book because i felt they come closest to describing the reality of the situation.
i believe this question actually harks back to decisions made by spright dowell and george denny in the 1920s and the subsequent progression of both the alabama and auburn football programs, the respective institutions and the perception of the populace of the state itself. as an alabama fan i can certainly perceive how this have affected the institution i am affiliated with but i am at a loss to understand it’s ramifications for auburn.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
The ends justify the means.
Got it.
If that’s your argument, though, you should just say it, much like the Bama fans do.

“Yeah, we cheated. We won the national championship, too. Big whoop, wanna fight about it?”
by vineyarddawg on Mar 31, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I took me nearly 1,000 words to say what you did in two sentences
I need to take some time off from work. Getting way too verbose these days.
http://hobnailboot.wordpress.com/
it's all that audit training
I swear they take you guys aside in Accounting school and force you to be verbose .
also, i don’t mean this personally but Auditors are the suck – just not you personally.
Can you tell my annual audit is now mercifully over?
I can bake like a demon.
Thank you.
If such allegations were leveled against UGA as have been against Auburn in the last few months, I would be not be jumping to the defense of the school from which I earned two degrees. I would quietly hope that the allegations were not true, but until it was proved one way or another, would refrain from saying anything.
To put it another way, I don’t go around defending the situation that Jan Kemp exposed by saying, “Everyone else did it, too.”
Will
THEY NAMED THEIR FOOTBALL FIELD AFTER PAT DYE.
Why does anything more need to be said? (I assure you, won’t stop me from saying more.)
Great article, Kyle
Well researched.. I think based on precedent and on the case you laid that Auburn should have it’s program disband under the repeat violator precedent, but I don’t think college football is at the same place as it was in the example. Football is a much bigger sport now and it’s worth more than ever, particularly in the SEC. The SEC conference itself would be fighting to preserve the revenue stream of one of it’s member institutions.
Much as I feel that Tressel should be fired when the NCAA hammer invevitably comes down on OSU, I don’t know that he will be. What should happen doesn’t always happen. In his case, despite having a history at Youngstown State and in previous OSU scandals that were brushed under the rug, he’s kept the reputation of being an upstanding, respectable coach.
What I loved about the Tressel thing
Is that he “stepped to the plate” to take the same suspension as his best players. I assume that means the team losses resulting from the suspension of this best players won’t go on his record. What a guy!
That's an interesting take on it
I think it’s more him trying to take a stance of being a classy coach, despite what everyone has seen in this whole debacle and the ones in the past involving him. It also seems like a desperate attempt to placate the NCAA after he lied to them, and that will hopefully not be the case. I don’t see how they can turn a blind eye to being lied to during their investigation.
Too many Dawg fans are poor losers
This article is a classic example of a Poor Loser. As a Georgia grad this type of response is embarrasing. There are too many UGA fans that feel the need to put other teams down in order to make themselves feel better about our team – specifically last year’s 6-7 football team. It’s obvious these former Auburn players duped HBO Sports in that there were no names given and no credible details provided in the accusations. HBO said they don’t pay for interviews, but they do pay for stories. Again, Dawg fans need to stop the whining about other schools and just focus on our team taking care of business.
Good lord. It's bad enough that Auburn fans think this is sour grapes.
Now we have to deal with Georgia fans saying the same thing?
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems to be a lot of this goin' round.
Bill Eidson joined today @ 03/31/11 9:57 AM EDT
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
And they made essentially the same point. Hmm.
Surely someone wouldn’t show up on a rival team’s blog and create two different accounts in order to back up his own position. Nobody is that pathetic, right?
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
No way that's Bill Eidson.
Too few grammar and spelling errors.
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Please, Realist,
give examples of how this article is a classic example of a poor loser.
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
What happens in the rest of the college football world affects the University of Georgia
Especially when UGA is harshly punished for relatively minor infractions by the NCAA while other offending schools walk away from far worse offenses unscathed. I do not see why Georgia fans should completely divest their attention from the goings-on in the wider college football world, even if it includes pointing out the misbehavior of a rival school, simply to avoid accusations of sour grapes.
And it certainly is far from “obvious” that these four players duped HBO – it would be quite a coincidence and possibly requires a conspiracy (PAAAAAAAAAAAAAWL) for all four of these players to be lying, and there is nothing reported by these players which deviates from practices we know for certain Auburn boosters have been involved with in the past.
by JoeDawg15 on Mar 31, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And assuming that you are in fact a Georgia fan (which I somewhat doubt)
Are you saying that having a 6-7 season last year precludes us from being critical of the actions of other programs? Aside from perhaps being the most ridiculous position I’ve ever heard, I’d like to point out that we aren’t the only ones responding this way.
"If there's one thing worse than chlamydia, it's Florida." ~ Emma Stone, Easy A
You've got to remember, RedCrake,
that these are just simply farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know…morons.
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Its ok... I have a solution.
We just need to get TCU to do all the complaining. Since they were the only other flawless team last year, they’re the only ones that should be allowed to comment since everyone else should be focused on their team taking care of business.
"If there's one thing worse than chlamydia, it's Florida." ~ Emma Stone, Easy A
Mississippi State should get to complain too.
I mean, it was their national championship that Auburn bought after all.
by Biggus Rickus on Mar 31, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep.
Nevermind the fact that this had absolutely nothing to do with Georgia, but we just need to focus on our team taking care of business.
Man, that certainly sounds like the kind of thing I would say to someone if I were doing something wrong and they were calling me out for it.
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Poor losers
I agree that too many Dawg fans are poor losers. I do not agree that Kyle’s post is an example. I’ve been around this site long enough to state with confidence that if Auburn had not won the SEC and national championships in 2010 and if Georgia had won its fifth consecutive game against Auburn in 2010, the recent news would have inspired the same post from Kyle. Seriously. I have no doubt of it.
more to the point
that’s yet another ad hominem attack. whatever kyle’s specific motivation may be is irrelevant to the veracity of the points being made in his argument.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
Indeed.
Assume: we’re poor losers.
Assume: we have no legitimate reason to hate Auburn but hate it, anyway.
Assume: we are envious of Auburn’s success last year.
Assume: we get inappropriate joy out of Auburn’s suffering.
The points made are valid, nonetheless.
(I’ll freely admit to the veracity of the fourth assumption and, to an extent, the third, as they apply to me, personally.)
well, not precisely
the points made are arguable as valid or invalid independently of those assumptions.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
ok.
I’m one of them lawyers. One of my favorite things to do in my line of work is to make the argument, “even if everything you say is true, you still lose.” That’s all I was doing.
I'm a member in good standing
of the Hate Bar of Georgia.
by NCT on Apr 1, 2011 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The timing is curious then ...
… the last call for Auburn to get the death penalty on this website was in July 2006. The summer after the last time Auburn beat Georgia.
Auburn won’t be getting the death penalty BTW. All these long knives that are out and all your wishes for bad tidings on my Auburn University are a frightful sight and suit you all, Georgia and Bama fan alike.
BTW, I hate both y’all’s teams but I’d never with the death penalty on football on anyone. What’s the point of that? Please tell me. You’d rather see a university’s program destroyed than beat them on the field?
Please note that, in both instances, I was responding to then-current news reports . . .
. . . alleging improprieties at Auburn.
What you call “curious” timing was purely coincidental, as I have no control over whether news breaks in years after Auburn beat Georgia or in years after Georgia beat Auburn.
For the record, I would rather see Georgia beat Auburn on the field than almost anything else in sports, but, as I wrote in 2006 and wrote again in 2011, if Auburn is guilty of the actions of which it stands accused, its past track record warrants the ultimate sanction based upon precedent. The operative verb is “deserve.”
Go 'Dawgs!
Do you really think
that Kyle wrote this (and, similarly, was his motivation for the original post in ’06) because of some sort of delayed reaction to a loss that took place over five months ago? Did you even read the post? Wow.
No, it’s because Auburn’s track record has been 50 years in the making. Last night, if any of what the former players contend is true, is merely the latest in a chronology of malfeasance. J.M., I hate to break it to you, but your program is dirty. And after a while, it begins to taint everyone else in the Conference. You keep messin’ in the Conference’s pool, the whole damn thing has got to be drained. There’s potentially more at stake here than just Auburn University. Kyle mentioned SMU with a reason: Their bad behavior not only resulted in their implosion, but ultimately the old Southwest Conference disintegrated. Could this happen to the SEC? Would rather not find out, thank you.

Caddyshack pool scene: Doodie!
I don’t want to see Auburn destroyed. And the “Death Penalty” will probably never happen again because of the big-picture repercussions to other institutions. But if any (a single one will suffice – see Ramsey, Eric) of these allegations prove to be true, then Auburn has indeed violated NCAA Bylaw 19.5.2.3.2 Repeat Violator and it calls for substantial penalties.
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
by DavetheDawg on Mar 31, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the response guys
I was wondering if something had happened in Georgia for a while there. You go back to list the transgressions of 50 years of Auburn football dirtiness. It’s a rap sheet and a half … that’s for sure. But death penalty we will not get when the last probation was 15 years ago.
Listen, I hope the NCAA is en route to the Plains. I really do. If something sticks, then root it out, find it and stop it. But I just don’t think you can stop handshakes from boosters. You’ve got to go BYU on your players and keep them in the high tower.
DawgRealist - Joined Dawg Sports - 03/31/11 10:49 AM PDT
"If there's one thing worse than chlamydia, it's Florida." ~ Emma Stone, Easy A
Good Lord
what a lot of mental masturbation is going on in here. HBO runs a story and talks to 4 players, all of which had a bad ending at AU, and or are now broke because they didnt get a degree and the NFL didnt work out for them, and now Auburn is in deep kimchee.
What HBO didnt show was the interviews with a great number of players (better than these guys) who say they didnt get paid and never saw it happen. None of these guys that got interviewed named anybody involved. They also didnt show the interview with McClovers HS coach who said the whole thing never happened at least at his HS.
Frankly, I welcome the NCAA to come to Auburn and Investigate the living hell out of this. This crap of being automatically guilty just because the opposition wishes it to be so is bullsh*t.
Until the NCAA issues the letters, does the investigation and finds evidence, the rest of this is a mental jerk off.
Did you read the entire article?
The final paragraph clearly stated that whether or not the allegations are true is a big if. It also clearly stated that if they’re true, then Auburn has the resume to have the death penalty thrown at them.
I have a question for you, though. Can you not realize that your attempt at weakening the story of the four players based on them having an axe to grind towards Auburn could just as easily be turned around and used on the players who say they didn’t get paid? For instance, if it’s feasible that Stanley McClover is lying about receiving money handshakes to try to get Auburn in trouble, is it not equally as feasible that Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams (just to name two guys) are lying about NOT receiving money handshakes because they want to defend Auburn? After all, these two guys are legends at Auburn. Why would they want to see their alma mater crucified and have a fanbase that adores them turn against them for whistleblowing? They have legacies to uphold, relationships to maintain, and reputations to protect.
Every man has a price…the difference is that McClover’s price might just be a lot lower than Ronnie and Cadillac’s.
…or maybe I’m just jerking off.
by hailtogeorgia on Mar 31, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
"a great number of players (better than these guys)"
Except that McClover was 2 time All-SEC at Auburn. “The Predator” only became a disillusioned malcontent after he left, apparently. While on the Plains he was a fan favorite and a key player on a stout defense.
But he says he was disgruntled and made that known. In return he received something to make his stay more, um, enjoyable. Does he have baggage? Heck yeah. But the story he’s telling is not implausible. Nobody needed to pay Lee Ziemba. And I believe he and a lot of other players when they say they were never paid. None of that however actually rebuts what McClover has claimed. Can he prove it? Probably not, unless he was dumb enough to deposit a sackful of cash in a backpack at the local Regions Bank in one fell swoop. But I find the fact that four guys have come forward with very similar stories extremely uncanny.
I also doubt seriously that HBO paid them, as some have suggested and HBO denied. That would be easily traceable. HBO is after all a wholly owned subsidiary of publicly traded Time Warner. Is it possible that they all have a long range plan to write a tell-all book and get rich off taking down API? Possible I suppose, but that’s some curiously extensive long range planning for a guy like McClover who, as Auburn fans all over the internet have pointed out “is just doing this because he left too early for the Draft and blew all his money.”
So was it a smoking gun? No. It wasn’t. But the NCAA has a curious habit of following the smoke back not only to the fire that originated it, but to entirely different fires that they just happened to stumble across. Just ask A.J. Green. Like the IRS, the NCAA will find something if they really decide to look. And what we saw last night was probably enough to make them look just a little harder. It wasn’t the end of the story. It was only the beginning.
And speaking of the IRS
just remember that those federal agency type folks (ie: Bureau of Prohibition now ATF & IRS) have been known to work together. Just ask Al Capone – the FBI really wanted to convict him for any one of dozens (or hundreds) of alleged crimes (like you know the Valentines Day Massacre), but they never could make anything stick. So, feeling a bit frustrated, they turned to their friends at the IRS who audited Mr. Capone and using some reverse calculations (ie: what he actually spent vs what he reported as income) charged and convicted him of tax evasion.
So just because one group of enforcement folks can’t get you, doesn’t mean another one won’t – many of them are friends.
I can bake like a demon.
"None of these guys that got interviewed named anybody involved."
Not exactly true. The guys interviewed named names, just not on camera. We can safely bet that the names will be made available to the NCAA.
Now let me get back to what I was doing before I was interrupted. I was about ready to finish.
actually it's not
if even a fraction of this turns out to be true, the ramifications to the other teams in the conference will be substantial. so aside for “h8tN 4wbUrn” there’s actually a bit of reasonable concern on people’s part for their own teams.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
HBO paying for interviews ...
… is a ridiculous accusation. You are on the mark there. No journalism outfit worth their salt would do such a thing.
Prove that HBO paid.
Apply the same burden of proof to your claim against HBO as you are demanding that we pay to the four former players’ claims.
by first and thom on Mar 31, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
like william bradford huie, for instance.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
We better watch out
The guys over at TET have started throwing “THUGA” around they’re so mad about this post.
Really?
That must be tough, seeing as how we haven’t had a player arrest since October 11, and we aren’t the ones who had players flagged for late hits or suspended for half a game for throwing punches last fall.
I don’t know what this post contains that would make anyone angry. For the most part, it’s merely an unvarnished recitation of the facts, with links to the sources. To the extent that opinion is expressed, it’s calmly stated, lacking in vitriol or name-calling, and mitigated with appropriate qualifiers. The nastiest jab in it is an aside about Pat Dye losing his pants. If it ticked any of them off, the fault is in them, not in me or in my posting.
Good to know, though.
Go 'Dawgs!
Kyle Kyle Kyle
There you go trying to rationalize the thoughts and actions of Auburn fans. You should know by now that’s a very difficult, if not impossible, thing to do.
by elfcrash on Apr 2, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

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