WSJ: "SEC Coaches Defend Oversigning"
Jordan Montgomery's coach, about South Carolina coaches pulling Montgomery's offer the day before National Signing Day:
"I told them this was foul. I didn't have a clue until 18 hours before signing day, and if they say anything else, they're lying."
about 1 year ago
Rangers100
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This whole article is packed with amazing stuff.
Bobby Petrino:
Petrino, the Arkansas coach, said he tries to follow a formula. He signs 19 players he knows are “academically gonna make it without being a load on our academic support staff,” six guys who may or may not qualify, and three to four players who have “absolutely no chance” of qualifying. (He signs the last group so that “they feel a commitment to us,” and stashes them in junior college for a few years.) Petrino said he makes sure borderline cases are aware of what they need to do in order to qualify, as well as their odds of making the fall roster. “They understand that hey, we’re gonna oversign, so if it’s late in the summer and they haven’t qualified yet, you might have to grayshirt,” he said.
Wow.
So he not only unapologetically exploits the ignorance and naivete of players, he intentionally signs players he knows will never qualify, and he doesn’t even appear to understand what “grayshirting” means.
Just. Wow.
How is it exploiting ignorance...
if you are up front about the reality of the situation and explain to them what will happen if they don’t get things done? Not saying it should be acceptable, just that I fail to see the huge damning you do if, as Petrino says, he’s at least up front and honest about their unethical actions.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Did you read the article?
Great angle taken by Karp and Everson in showing that the recruits and their families are often completely clueless about the risks they are facing.
This is why Greg McGarity and so many other officials refuse to engage in the practice. If it was as simple as what you say, then all schools would just exploit the ignorance and irrational expectations of the targets by downplaying the risks and rarely mentioning them after some brief box-checking.
But of course, very few schools do this. Because the officials of these schools realize that the practice lets coaches exploit the detachment from reality that Karp and Everson found in abundance.
I don't have a problem with what Petrino is doing until it's against the rules
I think it sucks, but I think almost everything he does sucks. He is within the rules, so I don’t think he is gaining an unfair advantage.
Under the current rules, it is on the recruits to figure out what their status might be. Putting that burden on recruits may be a bad idea and recruits might not have access to the needed information, but that’s the system. We assume that recruits will not go play in a program that views them as expendable cogs and assume that programs that treat kids like they are expendable will only get expendable kids over time. However, coaches who act poorly are being rewarded. Maybe we should change the system.
I suppose that means that (1) the recruits don’t have enough information (2) the recruits have enough information but are taking their chances anyway or (3) the feedback has not occurred yet.
Does oversigning confer an advantage? Almost certainly. Is that advantage unfair? I don’t think so, under the current system. Some coaches are exploiting the system, but they are not breaking its rules. Expecting Petrino to turn down a possible advantage that he can obtain without any actual cheating strikes me as fantasy.
by first and thom on Mar 1, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Why does the law determine your moral code?
You realize that extremely unethical behaviors are often legal, right?
Answers
(1) You’ve begged the question. The law does not determine my moral code. The law (in this case, the scholarship limits) is amoral. It’s just a rule.
I didn’t say anything about my moral code. If you care to know, I think Bobby Petrino is an immoral jerk from the tiny sample of public behavior that I have observed, but I don’t know the man. If I want someone to act morally, I work to change the rules so that they comply with morality.
I expect people to act morally and I am glad and deeply proud that my team is doing so. However, the fact that other teams are not acting in compliance with my expectations is a reason to change the system, not a good reason to light up the internet with my moral judgments.
I can’t call oversigning “unfair” because it is perfectly permissible under the rules that govern recruiting. I can’t call someone a cheater if they don’t break the rules. Therefore, I wholly support changing the rules so that I can have a permissible avenue by which to hurl insults at someone I would be delighted to insult.
I can’t change Petrino’s morality, nor is he is accountable to me for the morality of his actions. The SEC can’t change the moral rules by which he choses to govern himself. What it can change are the rules that apply to the classes he signs. I fully support increased restrictions on oversigning, although I worry that a student-athete’s preferences can be ignored if we instruct him where he can or cannot sign. I want to see better rules that more accurately reflect the balance of power between recruits and institutions. I care about the outcomes, and I don’t see that my anger on this subject moves the needle there at all.
(2) Of course I realize that unethical behaviors are often legal. I am not a child and you should not write as if I were. I may appear to be nothing other than a yellow comment on your monitor, but there is blood in the fingers that type these words, and experience in the mind that forms them.
by first and thom on Mar 1, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Got it.
Stressing the legality of the behavior is pretty pointless if you believe it to be morally reprehensible behavior. (Everyone already knows it’s legal.)
It's only pointless if you're more interested in railing against a problem . . .
. . . than in solving it. While I quite agree that codes of conduct should be guided by standards significantly higher than mere legality, the fact is that some people will take advantage of any lacunae in the rules to engage in conduct that is wrong but not outlawed. This group includes many people generally considered admirable, such as Dean Smith, whose “four corners” technique was an unsportsmanlike effort to kill time in a basketball game without doing anything that actually resembled playing basketball. The solution was the shot clock, and the problem was solved.
While oversigning justifiably evokes much more moral outrage than what Coach Smith euphemistically called “controlled offense,” the same principle applies. The people who engage in this practice to such an egregious extent know that what they are doing is morally wrong; they don’t care, so declaring with vigor, vim, and vitriol that they are wrong and that all who do not condemn them so vociferously are either ignorant or dishonest is unproductive, and, frankly, it’s gotten more than a little old around here, where we’ve gotten the point several times over now.
If the problem is the rule, change the rule. That is where the discussion should go. Should medical hardships have to be certified by the NCAA before a player can be greyshirted, much as medical redshirts must be approved by the NCAA? Should the written offer sheets extended to recruits contain specific disclaimers that must be acknowledged by both parties regarding what the scholarship does and does not mean? Should the date for identifying the 85 scholarship players be changed from the fall to earlier in the year, and, if so, what should the new date be? Should schools only be able to extend scholarship offers if they have an identifiable available scholarship to offer? What sanctions should be levied against schools that engage in the practice of oversigning as a matter of course? Should Mike Slive push for a new league policy or pursue NCAA legislation that would implement a universal standard throughout Division I-A? As a practical matter, are the votes there to implement such a policy, and, if not, should the measure be coupled with a proposal to raise the scholarship limits back to 95, where they were as recently as the early to mid-1990s?
These are the questions we need to be addressing. The continued railing against not only the practice, but against everyone who does not condemn it with what you deem a suitable level of vehemence in a rude and insulting manner, continues to creep closer and closer to the line. I would regret it if push finally came to shove, because you have contributed quite a bit to the basketball discussion, and your fanpost about Charlie Sheen and Muammar Qaddafi was quite entertaining. That Rangers100 is welcome; the one who continues to hammer home every point, demean his fellow commenters’ education and fandom based upon differences of opinion, and point out every error, no matter how trifling, increasingly is not. It’s starting to affect the tenor and caliber of the community here, and, as much as I appreciate and enjoy your positive contributions, my responsibility is to the community as a whole, and its defense must be a higher priority for me than indulging any individual member of it.
Go 'Dawgs!
Sounds to me like someone who really wants to kill the discussion.
Why the extreme sensitivity here?
If people don’t want to discuss the topic, they can avoid the threads.
Rangers100, I'm going to give you some advice, offered in the most helpful, nonconfrontational way I can.
You need to stop harping on the damn oversigning thing for at least 14 days. That might sound like an arbitrary number, but two weeks is an eternity in the web world.
If you simply don’t comment on oversigning in any way, that might give time for you and everyone else here just to cool down on this issue. Then, when it’s brought up at another time, we can have a more civil, reasonable, non-personally-disparaging discussion.
I mean, this is March. It’s not like oversigning is going to be a pressing issue for another 10 months, anyway. Would 14 days of “oversigning silence” really be that bad?
That accusation is absurd, Rangers100.
If I “really want[ed] to kill the discussion,” I’d have no trouble whatsoever deleting every comment you’ve ever posted and every fanpost and fanshot regarding oversigning. It literally would take less than two minutes. I haven’t done that, or anything close to that. In fact, I’ve tried to foster this debate (and other debates) in a productive manner.
It is not “extreme sensitivity” to inform you that multiple members of the community have been outraged by the personal attacks and reckless accusations directed at them by someone with a lengthy track record of being banned and warned at SB Nation weblogs. Far from being extremely sensitive, we’ve been more tolerant of you and patient with you than other sites have been.
The fault, Rangers100, lies with you. The behavior that needs to change is yours. If it doesn’t, your days here are numbered. Get that through your head.
While I certainly would not impose a 14-day moratorium on oversigning comments, I think vineyarddawg’s suggestion is a good one.
Go 'Dawgs!
And...
Why not just allow oversigning discussions to take place in oversigning threads?
No one has to participate in them if they don’t want to.
Because I have a larger responsibility to the network . . .
. . . and to the readers of this site to make it a civil and reasonable community within which fans may participate.
Even if I did not have such a responsibility, though, I still would enforce certain basic rules of decorum because the mere fact that ill-mannered behavior is lawful does not obligate me to condone it if I know it to be wrong. I would think you would see where I was coming from upon that point.
Go 'Dawgs!
Sounds to me like someone who really wants to kill the discussion.
Why the extreme sensitivity here?
That would describe you. Kyle, conversely, sounds like he wants to discuss the issue for what it truly is, and possibly methods that could correct what you deem to be so “morally reprehensible”.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Your points are valid
And I agree with the basis of your argument. But if your goal is to win the hearts and minds of others to your cause, you might want to reconsider your strategy.
Insulting people, their background, their racial motivations, their education, or their fandom whether by words or through your tone isn’t going to win you many supporters.
"If there's one thing worse than chlamydia, it's Florida." ~ Emma Stone, Easy A
by RedCrake on Mar 2, 2011 12:10 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
x
But if your goal is to win the hearts and minds of others to your cause, you might want to reconsider your strategy.
It’s not.
Insulting people, their background, their racial motivations, their education, or their fandom whether by words or through your tone isn’t going to win you many supporters.
Whose “background, racial motivations, and education” have I insulted?
If your purpose is not
to win others to supporting your cause, then what is your purpose? I’m asking honestly because I’m at a complete loss.
I can bake like a demon.
Whose background, racial motivations, and education have you insulted?
Honestly, Rangers100, it comes across very much like you’ve insulted the background, racial motivations, and education of everyone who’s bothered to disagree with you in the slightest. If it’s not your intention to come across that way, you need to re-evaluate the tenor of your comments, because that is very much the impression you are giving.
Go 'Dawgs!
Honestly, Rangers100, I could just about pick five of your comments . . .
. . . at random and feel assured of finding at least one example. The fact that you deny what you are doing when you are called on it doesn’t mean you aren’t doing it.
If you would like a specific example, your response to AuditDawg in the other thread—-the comment that drew the formal warning that will be your last before you are banned—-will suffice nicely . . . or, rather, not nicely, which is very much the point.
Go 'Dawgs!
It’s not.
So if your purpose isn’t to convince people to agree with your point of view on oversigning, why do you keep bringing up the topic? Is it just to have a platform to feel morally superior? I don’t get it.
I thought the whole reason these comments and thread keep popping up was because you wanted to change people’s minds about oversigning. Guess not.
"If there's one thing worse than chlamydia, it's Florida." ~ Emma Stone, Easy A
On the one hand...
If you can’t qualify at Arkansas, I smell Sun Belt in your future.
On the other, Bobby Petrino is a jackass.
"If there's one thing worse than chlamydia, it's Florida." ~ Emma Stone, Easy A
by RedCrake on Mar 1, 2011 12:10 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Thanks for posting this over here, Rangers100.
I have no desire to squelch discussion, and I don’t mind if that discussion gets a little heated when it concerns issues about which folks ought to be impassioned, but I appreciate it when we keep those conversations confined to comment threads in which they are relevant, so that not every comment thread becomes oversigning central.
Much obliged.
Go 'Dawgs!






























