Warrant Issued for Arrest of Alec Ogletree; Mark Richt Must Set an Example
by T Kyle King on Sep 3, 2010 11:19 AM EDT
in Football
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PrintAlthough vineyarddawg has beaten me to the punch, this story warranted (no pun intended) front-page attention. I'll let Seth Emerson provide the details:
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"Mark Richt Must Set an Example"
Exactly. I look forward to him calling out University PD/A-CC PD in a fiery press conference.
Update:
While I was typing the foregoing, Seth Emerson posted an update providing more details.
It was a motorcycle helmet reported missing by another athlete (not a football player), and it evidently turned up in Ogletree’s possession.
We are in “wait and see” mode, but no Georgia student, athlete or not, needs to be taking stuff that doesn’t belong to him, even if it’s only a $35 item. I’m holding out hope that there’s a good explanation, but, if there isn’t, my point still stands.
Go 'Dawgs!
I dunno, Kyle, ...
… that seems kinda rough to me. I mean, hypothetically, if he’d done something like been given free entry into a bar illegally, started multiple fights, nearly killed a guy, resisted arrest and spent the night in jail, maybe (and that’s a big maybe) I could see where he might need to do a little extra running after practice or something; but that kind of hypothetical over the top behavior requires that kind of hypothetical over the top punishment. For taking a helmet… I say just let him back into the fold and never speak of this again.
In all seriousness, I think a game or two suspension is in order.
by Comin' Down The Track on Sep 3, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
But theft is theft...
It does not matter what you steal. Would your opinion be different if he stole, say, two computers and a guitar from a fraternity house?
Yes, it’s only a helmet, but it is a type of crime that is more indicative of character than crimes of youth like underage drinking. Many of us drank before the magical age of 21, but was there any point in time when you felt compelled to steal from another person? Many people would say, “No.”
I am not judging him, but I do not want the other athletes to get the message that they can get away with almost anything, as long as it is not too bad…As I mention below, some players simply won’t get any message, severe or otherwise, but you cannot outwardly condone such criminality.
Boot him (if he is indeed guilty).
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
"Boot him"
I, for one, am glad that we’d force a one-strike-and-you’re-out penalty on 18-year-old kids, especially for something as petty as this.
Depends on the strike...
Theft or assault: Yes
Underage drinking or driving without a license: No
I just love the price tags people are placing on morality.
What’s the monetary threshold for stealing? $100? $1,000? What if he stole a rolex? A car? Theft is theft…
Ah..Boys will be boys…“Heck when I was 18, I stole all kinds of things. I stole shoes, and helmets, and bikes, etc. It’s what kids do, they steal.”…Give me a break.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Umm,
yes, it does matter what you stole. That’s why there’s a difference between larceny, petty theft, and grand theft (the first two being misdemeanors, the latter being a felony).
This would fall under either larceny or petty theft, neither of which are punishable by much more than a slap on the wrist/fine/short jail time.
by hailtogeorgia on Sep 3, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not advocating...
The death penalty. I merely do not want him on the team.
The standards set for a football program do not need to mirror the standards set in a courtroom. Many offenses, like DUI, get a slap on the wrist for an initial offense.
But just because society at large does not view theft as a big deal, Mark Richt might not want that kind of trash on his team.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Seems a little draconian to me.
I understand the frustration, but see MaconDawg’s suggestion re: a 6-game suspension below. Much more measured response while still making a statement about what will and won’t be tolerated.
by vineyarddawg on Sep 3, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I am just pissed off...
I admit.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
This v. Mett
So, Mett got the punishment you’re advocating for — booted. However, when I heard what Mettenberger did my reaction was far more visceral than it was when I heard about Ogletree. My first reaction to this was “man, that was stupid” rather than being repulsed, as I was with Mettenberger’s drunken groping.
I just think booting this kid without any past history of problems would be a mistake.
by WindyCityDawg on Sep 3, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
That depends.
I’ll admit we need more details—-which is why I qualified my comments originally to indicate that what I was advocating applied only if he was guilty—-but it matters whether he took the helmet or just received it, whether he made an honest mistake or knew it was someone else’s, what he did when he found out whose it was, etc. The full story may or may not produce a “that was stupid” reaction.
Go 'Dawgs!
No, actually, it does matter what you steal.
This is the case in both our practical morality—you know darn well you feel differently if you take an office pencil home with you versus embezzling lots of cash form the corporate account—and the law and recognizes that kind of difference as well: there are misdemeanor thefts, there are felonious thefts, and there is larceny, and the train does not meet.
That's all right.
I just didn’t want to have to calculate when a train leaving Athens at 7:14 p.m. and traveling west at 45 miles per hour would meet a train leaving Atlanta at 6:23 p.m. and traveling east at 55 miles per hour.
Go 'Dawgs!
Justice for All
A football player is no better than the student whose cycle helmet was stolen… And I believe that certain motorcycle helmets get very pricey (especially for the full guarding ones). I agree with the perspective that, if anything, a local player needs to act with dignity and be a role-model for others (c’mon… we’re in the south eastern U.S.—“southern hospitality”).
And on top of all this.. the guy is only a freshman.. he has no glory or fame except for the fact that he was recruited onto the team. I say boot him if he’s guilty.
I can't believe these comments
For years I have been pissed off about the Dawgs loosing games,Do you thunk the other Teams kick every one off?Guys play pranks and Jokes all the time,Sometimes people who are jelous of others make claims,Kids make mistakes its part of growing up,getting older and wiser.Moral Character is and should be Very High on the requirment list.But who is recruiting these Guys?Mark needs to be held accountable for his record,If you can’t get us back to a National Championship then we need to find some one that will.Look at AJ Green,that is sad and ridulous.if our Coaches cant lead by example then get some that can,some that can WIN.For all you that want these kids off the Team I sure hope a Jury of your peers dont have to Judge you one day,Georgia has one of the strictest Grade requirments in the Nation to be on the Team,We have lost Players in past Years because of that.Mark and tha Dawgs could have been tough last year but thanks to Mark letting our running back and our QB go Pro we are now stuck with a No 23 Ranking.
Signed
Tired of Loosing
Mark Richt does not need to take any action until Ogletree
is convicted, imo. Each incident must stand on its own, and the “not so recent possession” of stolen property is pretty flimsy. If he is convicted or enters a plea or nolo or guilty, he should be dismissed from the University. If they can’t prove it, he should suffer no consequences from the team or the university. As far as driving on a suspended license being a “rinky dink ministerial matter”, I must disagree. It is a flagrant disrespect for the law . . . although not a violation of the 10 commandments.
Should he, however...
…be found of worshipping false idols or working on the Sabbath, we can only hope retribution will be swift and certain.
If he's cleared, I agree there should be no consequences.
As I indicated, I only believe he should be dismissed “[i]f Alec Ogletree is found to be guilty of the crime for which a warrant was issued against him—-a very big ‘if,’ which has not yet been proven.”
I regret minimizing the significance of driving on a suspended license; I merely meant to distinguish between what might be matters of mere negligent oversight and what clearly are matters of actual malfeasance.
Go 'Dawgs!
I'm too frustrated and depressed to erupt in rage.
At this point, I’m just ready for 5:00 to get here so I can have another Arson Charles or 20.
hell, it is twelve o'clock somewhere...
…would the season just get started already!
"so, will try to kick one a hundred thousand miles. We're holding it on our own 49 and a half: and Butler kicked a long one...a long one...oh my God! Oh my God!!"
Candy is dandy...
… but likker is quikker.
by vineyarddawg on Sep 3, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
But it
tastes so much like candy, and its at a high enough gravity to you have you swerving around Atlanta with red panties between your legs…..
Too soon?
"Too soon?"
No it’s afternoon. It’s perfectly acceptable . . .oh you meant . . .
No, still not too soon. The laughter makes the pain subside.
Oh my dear sweet goodness
Creme brulee? And alcohol? This is Nobel Prize level alchemy we are talking about here.
How many examples are needed?
If kicking the other two off the team didn’t work, why is kicking Alec off the team going to help?
I think he should be shown the door, but these kids are not getting any type of message for seeing other players suspended/cut from the team. Some of them are simply too stupid, arrogant, or both to change their behavior.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Then it's time for the Lester Maddox approach:
“What we need is a better class of player.”
Go 'Dawgs!
Lester Maddox?
I’d just assume we follow nothing that man ever did.
I was merely alluding to his famous line about prison reform.
I’m not trying to get political, particularly about the issue with respect to which he was most famous, but there was more to Governor Maddox than that.
Go 'Dawgs!
Kyle you are correct ..........Far More
and sadly most of it will remain buried under the less than stellar issues that prompted the headlines.
Now back to Ogletree – WTF is wrong with these kids?
Yep. He was my greatuncle, so maybe I've been brainwashed, but I've always thought of him as misunderstood.
Latest AJC update says it was a “scooter” helmet.
Excuse my language, ma'am, but that damn Dodd's gonna beat my butt today. -- Bear Bryant, November 1962
SB Nation Atlanta · The Falcoholic · Blog · Twitter
Another dadgum scooter.
I mean, of course.
Because a University of Georgia athlete would need a scooter helmet to wear while driving his scooter on a suspended license and emerging from an alley going the wrong way down a one-way street with a pair of panties in his lap.
Go 'Dawgs!
Really? Never knew that.
About your family background, that is. I already knew it was a moped helmet.
I am from Home Park, and Met the Guv there in Jerry's barbershop - I always liked him
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
I agree.
I do not know Alec personally, so I cannot speak to his character prior to this incident. However, some of the players who get in trouble have spotty pasts. It is difficult to determine who should be given a second chance and who we should avoid entirely. Look at Rogers with UT…This is a call that needs to be made by Richt and Co., and maybe the bar needs to be raised. Or, in the case of alcholol related incidents, maybe the bars need to be razed…
Unfortunately, some of the most troubled athletes are also the most talented. See: Odell Thurman…
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Aw, geez...
… and now, to top it off, 3 of SI’s writers picked Georgia to make it to the BCS, including Stewart Mandel.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/ncaa/09/01/preseason-crystal-ball/index.html
Sometimes, it’s just not your day week year decade.
The "set an example" argument
I hate this argument. I hate it when people say you should punish someone to “set an example” — it makes virtually no sense and punishing an individual more harsly than necessary to disuade others does not work in any context. The death penalty doesn’t prevent people from killing. The three strike rule doesn’t prevent people from engaging in multiple felonies. Kicking people off the team (Mett) doesn’t stop other student athletes from doing stupid things. Firing an AD doesn’t set people straight.
Mark RIcht must dole out a punishment that fits this particular transgression. Kicking Mr. Ogletree of the team for a non-violent offense that did not endanger anyone would be a gross overreaction. Further, consequences like this might “set an example” but it could virtually ruin Alec’s life — all over a $35.00 (I’m assuming) bike helmet. As far as I can tell, Alec doesn’t have much of a criminal past, and this doesn’t warrant a life-altering punishment for one bad decision.
As someone that’s made a fair amount of mistakes in my life, I’ve learned more when the people around me allow me to make up for what I did and earn back their trust. To just kick somebody off the team for something this stupid would be a mistake.
That said, hopefully this is all just a misunderstanding.
Setting an example
What did the A-CC PD do to the officers who kidnapped Jordan Love?
I agree with you completely.
There aren’t many times I disagree with Kyle, but here we do. Setting an example isn’t the right way to go about handling this type of thing. It’s a thirty-five dollar helmet, it doesn’t warrant kicking him off the team. It’s stupid, yes. Suspend him a few games.
by hailtogeorgia on Sep 3, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I've kicked it around in my head for a few minutes, and here's my suggestion.
A 6 game suspension. In this case that means that a freshman who would have played in game one (and knew it) will now redshirt. That will definitely hurt.
He should also have to complete public service, since the victim was a UGA track athlete 40 hours of work for those folks would be appropriate. And he should have to help his brother Zander pack his bags for every road trip this season, because his under-recruited butt apparently knows better than the take other people’s stuff. That and a sound work ethic are why he’ll be on the field tomorrow.
Excellent suggestion.
“Set an example” doesn’t necessarily mean “kill with extreme prejudice.”
As you say, the 6-game suspension would virtually ensure that he would then have to redshirt, and it would send a strong message that even if it’s a $35 scooter helmet, this kind of crap is not allowed in the Georgia football program.
by vineyarddawg on Sep 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I like this suggestion...
If he’s not kicked from the team, make him sit out a year…
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
I like this too
I don’t know why we don’t have more of these punishments. Bottom line is that theft is a conscious, deliberate act (usually, assuming there wasn’t a mix up) and it warrants punishment. Unlike underage drinking (which I would guess 90% of kids at UGA do) and driving without a license (I’ve done this, only to find out it was expired when I got carded at a bar), theft is a big deal.
If you make a kid sit out a year, and he wants to be here, he’s going to have to earn back your trust. If he thinks he’s better than the team, he’s going to transfer, and so be it.
by WindyCityDawg on Sep 3, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I can live with that.
Note to self: the next time there’s a player arrest (read: next week), call MaconDawg and vent to him before going on-line to post my initial thoughts.
Thanks, MaconDawg.
Go 'Dawgs!
Yes.
Plus, how to you justify that to an individual? Son, you’re being treated more harshly in order to set an example? How is that even remotely fair? It’s not how the law works, either.
It's damned sure how my father raised me.
And it’s damned sure deterred me from some of the stupid stuff I otherwise might have done.
I stand with Martin Sheen in “The West Wing” in asking, “What is the virtue of a proportional response?”
Hiroshima was not a proportional response. It ended the war.
The March to the Sea was not a proportional response. It ended the war.
Go 'Dawgs!
Hiroshima?
Umm, yeah we could in theory disband the team and we would not have any more football players arrested. Is that the metaphor here, or are we talking about a bike helmet/one kid’s future?
by WindyCityDawg on Sep 3, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
educated guess:
Kyle is upset and frustrated. We all are.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
We're talking about letting these kids know what is and is not acceptable behavior.
You tell me . . . how much stealing is it all right for University of Georgia athletes to do?
My answer is “none,” and I want a punishment that lets everyone know the answer is “none.” That’s the point of my Hiroshima and March to the Sea examples. How many times have foreign governments launched attacks on U.S. soil since Hiroshima? How many times have states tried to secede since the March to the Sea? Well, there you go.
Unlike you, I believe deterrence works. I believe letting the players know that doing what Zach Mettenberger did isn’t all right was important enough to kick our potential starting quarterback off the team. While this is a lesser offense, it’s still serious enough that a clear line needs to be drawn.
I don’t think stealing is acceptable behavior. There are degrees of stealing, but they’re all on the wrong side of the line. I hold Mark Richt and his players to a higher standard. Caesar’s wife should be beyond reproach. I’m O.K. with MaconDawg’s suggestion of taking a year of playing time away from him if he’s guilty, but sitting him down for a game against Louisiana-Lafayette won’t do.
Go 'Dawgs!
Deterrence !=
Over-the-top deterrence.
(And again, I’ll ask: What has A-CC PD done to the officers who kidnapped Jordan Love?)
WindyCityDawg's 11:46 comment made it clear that he doesn't believe . . .
. . . deterrence works in any form. I believe that, to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs.
I’m not talking about the Athens-Clarke County Police. That’s outside the bailiwick of this weblog. I’m talking about the standards we expect of University of Georgia athletes, and what those standards ought to be.
Go 'Dawgs!
Yeah, well
As a taxpayer, I’m talking about A-CC PD being happy to employ criminals, and how that effects anything and everything they do w/r/t football players.
A note on deterrence
One can’t just opine on whether “deterrence” works. The question is whether the punishment given for a particular action effectively deters others not receiving the punishment from engaging in similar behavior. Don’t get me wrong — punishment can deter behavior. The question is what level of punishment is required to deter a particular type of conduct.
Hence the examples I provided at 11:46 AM. Death penalty does not deter murder. Three strikes does not deter repeat felons. Harsh, brutal punishments that do not prevent others from engaging in similar conduct.
Anytime an authority levies a particular punishment there are costs: costs to the individual being punished, costs to society for providing the punishment, economic costs associated with losing a productive member of society (potentially). If those combined costs outweigh the value of the deterrence, than what’s the point?
Here, you can ruin a kid’s life for one mistake. You can lose a potentially productive member of the team. You lose any and all positives that Mr. Ogletree provided to the team (physical, emotional, social relationships, etc.) in an effort to deter others. Surely you’re not kicking him off the team because you think this is a great way to teach him a lesson.
I believe that the opportunity to redeem yourself is valuable and that the deterrant (sic, I’m sure) effect of kicking him off the team would be minimal, if any. It’s not that I don’t believe in deterrence. It’s that I believe we grossly overpunish and criminalize acts in this country ostensibly and disingenously for the purpose of “deterrence.”
by WindyCityDawg on Sep 3, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Those are fair points, WindyCityDawg.
I apologize if I misread your previous comment, and the reasonableness of your position has much to do with why I am willing to accept MaconDawg’s proposed solution as a punishment substantial enough to send the appropriate message about the unacceptability of this sort of behavior without exacting outsized costs in the process.
Well said. Thank you. As tankertoad said, I’m just frustrated. My apologies for letting that get the better of me.
Go 'Dawgs!
Honored
Honored for the master wordsmith to call one of my comments “well said.” I’m frustrated too. We need some football….like on the field….as soon as possible.
by WindyCityDawg on Sep 3, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Upon that point, WindyCityDawg, . . .
. . . we are in complete agreement.
Thanks for talking me down, brother.
Go 'Dawgs!
Here Here
As a former Internal Revenue Agent I can tell you without any hesitation that Tax Audits do not deter tax cheaters. It doesn’t even slow them down. Heck Tax criminal cases do no good except to scare the people that are already doing the right thing.
If Richt over reacts to this he will lose the team and we can all watch this season go down the toilet. So unless you want to become Vandy just let the coach do his job.
How many on here?
Actually give a damn about the kid’s future? Give me a break. Y’all want him on the team because he is a talented football player. Period.
Ruining his future? First, he made the mistake and is not an innocent victim. Second, he can still go to school and get a real job like all of us (assuming y’all aren’t NFL players). Third, if he doesn’t like it here, another school like Auburn will gladly take him. We know the NFL doesn’t care what people do, so this does not ruin his future. It just gets people with a tendency to steal off this particular team. I don’t care if Auburn has thugs, but I do care if UGA does.
The ruining-his-future argument is weak.
But I agree with Kyle, there are still too many unknown details.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Perhaps not, although the Student Judiciary presumably could suspend him.
However, there is a difference between being kicked off the football team and being kicked out of the University.
I have come around to MaconDawg’s way of thinking, but the two are not analogous.
Go 'Dawgs!
I agree...
Thank you.
I don’t understand why many on here feel that Alec has an inherent right to play football? I have never once advocated kicking out of school. I went to school, go a degree (two of them), and never once played a down of football.
I guess if not playing football equates to a ruined life, then my life was ruined at birth. He can get a degree and get a non-football job, or in the alternative, ply his trade elsewhere.
I am sure LeGarrette Blount’s future was ruined by becoming a likely backup to Chris Johnson on the Titans. Cry me a river.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
^kicking him out of school^ and ^got a degree^
Although typing is not my forte…
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Just because his future doesn't directly impact us,
doesn’t make the argument any weaker or mean that we don’t care. The argument being held here is generally from the perspective of Mark Richt. By giving our opinions, we are asking ourselves (either directly or indirectly) what we would do in his position. If you think that Mark Richt doesn’t care about his future, or that I wouldn’t care about his future if I were in Richt’s stead, then you’re mistaken.
I understand that everyone is probably a bit jaded after this arrest (and this offseason), but there are those who do wish the best for mankind. I generally count myself among those people. It is disappointing to see a kid with a promising future make mistakes (such as this one) and it would be even more disappointing to see him kicked off of the team (which is largely his future) for an infraction involving larceny or petty theft. People make foolish decisions when they’re eighteen years old, and it is important to make a distinction between those mistakes. You say theft is theft is theft, I say theft is theft, but some thefts are worse than others. In my opinion, this doesn’t fall into the worse category.
by hailtogeorgia on Sep 3, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
T Kyle, though...
what you or I anyone does as a parent is quite different than what one has to do with a group of people who are equals and are expecting its leader to be an arbiter of fairness among them. You’re talking about, in most cases, a parent treating each kid individually because of their age, maturity, and intelligence issues. (And gender, too, if we want to be honest.) If you had twins, though, and one got caught with a suspended license and was punished, then the other one did the same thing a week later, does the second one get a harsher punishment in order to set an example? What example would have been set?
To some extent, Mark Richt is acting in loco parentis, . . .
. . . in fact if not in law, so I believe the parenting analogy (while imperfect) is applicable.
In your example, yeah, I think I would hand down a harsher punishment, because the second one had the benefit of the first one’s example. The second one, in my mind, did something worse, because the second one saw the consequences of that action and chose to ignore them. That says to me that the original consequences weren’t sufficiently severe.
Obviously, there are limits to this—-you don’t give the death penalty for jaywalking—-but there is a certain point at which you have to show you mean business to get the message through. For whatever reason, the message isn’t getting through. Maybe my way isn’t the best way to communicate that message, but, somehow, some way, it has to be communicated.
I am grateful to all of you for contributing reasonable alternatives, which I appreciate. I am at my wit’s end with this kind of crap.
Go 'Dawgs!
But..
Regarding the deterrence point, I bet fewer people would jaywalk if they knew that it carried the penalty of death. Many may not believe that jaywalking is wrong, but they would likely abstain from breaking that law out of fear of the consequences.
I don’t care if the UGA football players believe that underage drinking, driving with a suspended license, and theft are wrong. I want them to be so afraid of what may happen to them that they don’t engage in said activities. Maybe that means having extreme penalties.
I don’t care about the motives, only the end result, and that end result is less arrests.
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
Yup ....
King family motto – The ass is connected to the brain. Worked for us.
It's a gas, gas, gas.
by Keith Richards on Sep 3, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to reply to Kyle's post
But I was going to type this. So let me just say that you are exactly right and leave it at that.
Well said was in
reference to WindyCityDawg in case you were wondering :-)
How others handle crap
I have been swapping emails with my buddy (an unfortunate gator grad) discussing appropriate punishment when he sent this which seems fair and balanced
“Meyer has one of our top receivers suspended, paying his own way, and no playing time for a DUI on campus this year. He’ll be back on the team next year, if he doesn’t do anything stupid, pays his own way for the entire year (both semesters) and does everything the student judicial board does.
I say yank their scholarships and let them pay for their way and see how they like it."
Wow
Let’s just Draw and Quarter him. I guarantee he doesn’t have to play for the UGA and if we kick him to the curb we will get to enjoy seeing him every fall Saturday on another SEC team. This is what is known as “Cutting Off Your Nose to Spite Your Face.”
Less just get a little Christ-like here and go with “He who is without sin cast the first stone.” Now pitching for the UGA Bloggers T. (tolerant-less) Kyle King.
The "T." stands for "Timothy," . . .
. . . and I managed to earn two degrees from the University of Georgia without ever stealing a bike helmet.
Go 'Dawgs!
No T it stands for what I said
Hopefully your kids won’t get into any trouble ever. “To err is human to forgive Divine.” I too graduated from UGA and while I didn’t steal anything either I unlike you don’t think your punishment fits the crime and my vote = your vote.
Trolling the owner of the blog...
… is not advised.
by vineyarddawg on Sep 3, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Your vote does equal my vote.
However, my first name is “Timothy,” not “tolerant-less.” It is the name my parents gave me, and it is one I carry with pride.
If you want to call me intolerant, you are free to do so, and I will respond appropriately to the arguments you make. I believe I have established a track record of maintaining an open forum for discussion and providing a fair hearing for all reasonable views, and I have tried to be much more lenient with warnings and bans, but, when you start making it personal, you cross a line.
My first name is “Timothy,” so, no, the “T.” does not stand for what you said it did. If you want to have a civilized conversation, I’m all ears. If you want to insult my name, take it someplace else.
Go 'Dawgs!
I see they've got self-righteous teeth-gnashing response at the AJC
What would we do without Jeff Schultz and his infinent wisdom?
http://hobnailboot.wordpress.com/
Oh heck let's just drop football...
we can’t recruit quality guys even though our coach is a good man. We can’t coach them up, and we surely don’t want to win any games with thugs. If you are going to go overboard with this one player then you are punishing him for the sins of the coaches and the other 8 guys who got into trouble this year. Let’s be like that beacon of righteousness at North Carolina and kick them all off the team.
Ok, that might have crossed the line.
Sorry if that’s a little too personal. I have less patience than Kyle does with people who can’t maintain a certain level of decorum.
Thanks for recognizing that, vineyarddawg, . . .
. . . although regular commenters get points for building up a track record.
Do unto others, and all that. Carry on.
Go 'Dawgs!
Kyle just a question - nothing more
Kyle if the “T” stands for Timothy (I have no reason to doubt it) and you have such pride in the name why do you not use it? Again just curious – I have a name that I have never used and likely never will.
Now back on topic. If Mr Ogletree is guilty of theft I say we have a problem. I also think we have a problem if the punishment doesn’t fit the crime. Should CMR punish him to please alumni, media, opponents and or fans or should he send a message to the team (they may have a far different attitude than alumni and fans) or try and get a young man on the right track.
I trust CMR will do the right thing and most likely he will not search the web for suggestions.
I've always gone by my middle name, but I also use my first initial professionally.
The only times any of us use our full names, I suppose, is when we’re in trouble (from mothers calling down their children to the press identifying assassins) or when we’re getting married (on wedding invitations). I don’t use “Timothy,” but I don’t want other people (such as the previous commenter, not you) insulting it or saying my name is something other than what it is. Unlike some University of Georgia athletes, I know what my full name is, and I didn’t appreciate the other fellow trying to tell me that my first initial stood for something other than what I truthfully said it did.
The message I’m talking about is to the team. I trust Mark Richt, and I agree that I want to get the individual player back on the right track, but players aren’t always able to do that within the context of the team. As I indicated from the beginning, I don’t yet know whether that’s the case here, but Coach Richt’s duty is to the team, not to me.
Go 'Dawgs!
We are on the same page
Mr. “T” (insert little winky face here)
by JRL on Sep 3, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Middle Namers Unite
Also, I’ve officially crossed over. All I have to do now is slaughter some children in a crappy prequel.
"I want anything wearing red and black to tear the head off anything that isn't."
- Lewis Grizzard
Question for those of you in favor of kicking Ogletree off the team...
….exactly how many players need to be kicked off the team before you all realize that kicking players off the team isn’t preventing players from getting into trouble in the future.
There has to be another than cutting off our nose to spite our face.
Well, yes and no.
I can’t say that kicking Zach Mettenberger off the team has or has not prevented other players from getting into the same kind of trouble he got into, but I can say that other players haven’t gotten into that particular type of trouble since. I don’t know if it’s cause and effect, but I’m satisfied with the result.
That said, I indicated above that I have come around to MaconDawg’s way of thinking, and it is clear that something has to be done to prevent these incidents from occurring in the future, preferably at all and certainly with such regularity. I am open to all suggestions for how to combat the problem.
Go 'Dawgs!
Guess what guys?
If we win 10 games this year, nobody will care about the arrests… so let’s just call this “frustration” what it really is…. frustration that we haven’t been winning like we’ve expected to win since 2007.
I disagree.
I will be taking my seven-year-old son with me to Sanford Stadium tomorrow. I hope he gets to see a Georgia victory. I also hope he gets to see 85 scholarship athletes who will never again for the rest of their lives have another run-in with the law. The fulfillment of the first hope will not diminish the fervency of my desire to see the fulfillment of the second.
It matters to me how my alma mater is represented. That is true both with respect to the caliber of the athletes’ play on the field and with respect to the caliber of the athletes as human beings. I think Damon Evans did a good job as athletic director, but I did not hesitate to call for his ouster after he embarrassed the University in such an inexcusable way.
Obviously, Alec Ogletree’s and Damon Evans’s situations are not comparable, and not all offenses are equally unforgivable, but standards must be set, and winning does not excuse the failure to meet them.
Go 'Dawgs!
I respectfully disagree as well.
Unlike Kyle I do not have a son who will be attending games with me this season. If I did I would share his reasoning verbatim.
But I still want our University, and its athletic teams, to stand for something. I want them to win, but I insist that they do it the right way. I know that sounds old fashioned and perhaps a bit naive. But that’s kind of part and parcel of any aspirational statement.
I can't improve over Kyle and MaconDawg's arguments...
… but I just wanted to voice my 100% agreement with both of them.
Like MaconDawg, I don’t have children, but I hope to one day, and when I do, I will want them to be fans of a program that is run the right way according to a certain set of standards, as Kyle said.
Started seeing a downhill trend ....
…. and lack of discipline when Moreno and others were waving towels and otherwise acting foolish during games.
It's a gas, gas, gas.
The blackout was totally worth it
I would take ten Fulmer Cups in a row if it meant I got to experience that atmosphere again, towel waving, cranking dat, and all.
I don't think it has anything to do with that.
I’m not trying to be insensitive, but that whole spin needs a rest. You mean to tell me that Knowshon Moreno, who was picked up for one very minor issue (a noise complaint) while at Georgia, and Thomas Brown, who (to my knowledge) never had any blemishes on his record, are the reason for players getting arrested now? That’s ludicrous.
This happened long before then. It has to do with a myriad of things, including, but not limited to: recruiting players of questionable backgrounds, recruiting players who excel in a violent sport, recruiting players who’ve never left home to come play football in a college town with many attractive girls and a great drinking scene, recruiting players to play football in a town with an extremely overzealous police force, as well as the good old fact that sometimes, young people make stupid decisions.
A few examples that it has nothing to do with dancing at the blackout game and waving towels: Odell Thurman, Mike Bobo (yep, even Lillywhite Mike got arrested), Jeremy Thomas, Ian Smith, Tony Milton, Daniel Inman, etc. (if I mistakenly included anyone in this list, my apologies).
I’m sorry, but blaming the Blackout Game or the Celebration in the Endzone in Jax just seems like a whole lot of “You kids get off my lawn!” to me.
by hailtogeorgia on Sep 3, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm afraid I have to agree.
In addition to the ones listed above there was also the great smoke-in of aught-three , Tripp Chandler and Blake Barnes (the least thugged out human being on Earth, as best I can tell) getting arrested, and of course, Mudcat’s Oldsmobile and Tanner Strickland’s fake ID operation, among others. And Darius Swain, God bless his no license having heart.
GET SHET OF THE DAM SCOOTERS, FGS!
Heck, these folks are athletes, what the heck is wrong with them walking around campus?
Just like money...
… it’s not scooters, but the love of scooters that is the root of all evil at the University of Georgia.
You had me until the word 'moral'
Morality has nothing to do with this. It’s all about legality and stupidity at this point.
You're probably right that morality has nothing to do with this.
I simply maintain that it should.
I find that, if your goal is to do the right thing, doing the legal thing and the smart thing pretty much take care of themselves.
Go 'Dawgs!
We don't disagree on that point
My stance is simply that once an act is committed, it should be judged in a legal matter. Morality is never the same for the offender and the adjudicator.
I'm really in no mood to defend this crap...
But I think its worth noting that Ogletree is a true freshman. While that has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of his actions, it is worth noting that by NCAA mandate Coach Richt and the rest of the staff have only had 3-4 weeks of contact with this student.
If he hasn’t been properly taught right from wrong (and I don’t know anything about his background so I’m not trying to be accusatory), that isn’t much time for the staff to instill values in him. I would be much more troubled about the character of the the program if he’d been around for a few years.
One argument against the “kick him out of the program” point is that if the young man hasn’t been properly taught the ethics and morality of the stealing issue at this point, learning from the coaching staff is likely the last chance he will have.
"I want anything wearing red and black to tear the head off anything that isn't."
- Lewis Grizzard
Latest update:
Minimum one-game suspension by Richt. He said he will continue to gather facts about the situation, he’s obviously disappointed in Alec, etc. According to Jimmy Williamson, the victim (Petr Novotny, a member of the track team from the Czech Republic) can choose whether or not to press charges.
Here’s my opinion: Hopefully Novotny chooses not to press charges and Richt is allowed to deal with this how he sees fit. If Novotny presses charges, then this could get nasty. I can’t see him pressing charges, as he would probably lose some friends if he did (not that that’s necessarily right), but who knows?
On the note of Novotny: Going into this, I was asking myself “Who calls the police and reports a crime over a $35 dollar scooter helmet?” Now that the information has come out that it is a track athlete from the Czech Republic, it makes sense. That isn’t a slight to anyone from the Czech Republic, I just think that it’s more of an indication of a difference in culture. Personally, I feel like most people I know wouldn’t take the time to deal with the police over a $35 scooter helmet, but maybe that’s just me.
Or perhaps I misread it,
and Novotny already chose to press charges further. I’m not really sure. Now that I think about it more, that makes more sense…in which case I have to ask: Who, in the name of Pete, presses charges over a $35 scooter helmet?!?! Give me back the helmet, I tell you that I just saved you from serious crap, let Richt in on what happened so the punishment can be doled out as necessary, and let it be.
by hailtogeorgia on Sep 3, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I could hardly fault Petr Novotny for pressing charges.
If he was the victim of a crime, he’s perfectly within his legal rights (and the realm of reasonable behavior) to press charges against the perpetrator.
Go 'Dawgs!
Yes, of course he is.
I don’t debate whether or not he’s within his legal rights. I’m just more of a live and let live kind of person, and if the helmet can be returned with no trouble and I don’t have to involve the law, then I’m not going to involve them.
by hailtogeorgia on Sep 3, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That's fair.
I’m not saying Novotny should or shouldn’t press charges. He just shouldn’t catch any flak for it if he does (or already has).
Go 'Dawgs!
Agreed.
I will say that I don’t think he should press charges, but if he does (or has), he doesn’t deserve to catch grief from others for it (although I’m sure he will).
As to pressing charges, perhaps it’s the South Georgia coming out in me, but I’ve always kind of felt like involving the law just complicates matters further and rarely accomplishes anything that I couldn’t accomplish myself. I would feel completely fine knowing that Mark Richt would give Ogletree enough “internal things” to take care of to satisfy me.
by hailtogeorgia on Sep 3, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It's all about timing
I’ll just make two pretty obvious and inter-related points that, unfortunately, no one seems to be acknowledging so far:
1) There’s a big difference between prospective and retroactive “hard lines.” If Richt (and the angry voices here) want to see some sort of zero-tolerance policy for players getting arrested, then announce it prospectively, and place the entire team on a clear and equal footing.
2) The actual offense occurred in June, not today. “Making an example” of Ogletree because his offense came to light at a particularly embarassing time is not just unfair, but is weak and defensive. Treat all these guys the same, and then deal with the consequences.
Thanks, donkeydawg.
Those are both fair points. Please excuse my earlier outrage. Once again, I have been persuaded by MaconDawg’s position.
Clearly, a zero-tolerance policy for player arrests would be too harsh; being booted from the team would be too harsh for an offense along the lines of Washaun Ealey’s, for instance. There just need to be some pretty clear standards set forth and enforced. Players have to know better than to do this, and it is frustrating as all get-out that we can’t seem to go a week without someone doing something that is not only stupid, but clearly illegal.
Go 'Dawgs!
Clear Standards
Couldn’t agree more! But much as I share your frustration that this crap keeps happening, we shouldn’t let the collective record affect the disposition of individual cases. The best way to “set an example” is to create a standard and enforce it consistently, whether or not the fan base cares about it. I think that’s exactly what Richt did with Mett, whose punishment probably struck many fans (though not me) as excessive.
To put it another way, nobody should be punished more or less severely because of our Fulmer Cup standings, a factor that few outside of our crazy CFB-obsessed blogger world cares about anyway. If we have a general problem with player behavior, change the standards or change the monitoring or change recruiting practices, but don’t “make examples”—set them!
I just can't fathom turning in a fellow student-athlete
I was a student-athlete not too long ago and doing such a thing would have never occured to me. I was in situations where I could have turned in people, on my team or on others, for breaking the law, but it wasn’t something I was going to do. Whether they were a starter on the football team or a walk on volleyball player, it just wasn’t gonna happen. I don’t want to say it was an omerta type of thing, but there was (in my opinion, at least) a bond between student-athletes that would have stopped one athlete from pressing charges against another. I don’t fault Novotny for doing what he did, but I wouldn’t have acted the same way.
Mark Richt reminds me more and more of Bobby Bowden...
…in the good ways, and the bad.
Ogletree will not be made an example. If Richt were the kind of man to enforce a standard of conduct that would prevent episodes like this, he would have already, and in such a way that we would never have heard about any of this. There are plenty of opportunities, in practice, team meetings, every day with the players, to instill the expectation that ethical and upright behavior is expected of everyone. The endless string of indiscretions from players and ADs, over multiple years, is evidence that this is not being done, at any level.
I’m not throwing stones, mind you. I think Coach Richt thinks he’s trying his best, just like Bobby probably did, as year after year saw FSU players arrested for one thing after another.
At the end of the day, though, a whole passel of actions speak louder than words. Finish an offseason off the Fulmer Cup leaderboard entirely and maybe I’ll change my mind.
What would you do differently?
Mark Richt’s first action upon arriving in Athens basically was to run Quincy Carter off. He instituted mandatory character education classes for incoming freshmen. He has regular team meals with the coaches and their families to model proper adult behavior. The University of Georgia enforces the toughest anti-alcohol policy in the Southeastern Conference. With a 7-3 record in his first season, Mark Richt kicked Jasper Sanks off the team the week before facing Georgia Tech, to whom the Bulldogs had lost three straight times. His zero tolerance policy axed Odell Thurman following an incident in which the police said they would have arrested the other party if they could have. Michael Lemon, Zach Mettenberger, and Montez Robinson (among others) were kicked off the team. Dontavius Jackson was suspended for half a season. Justin Houston was given a two-game suspension for last year’s games against Oklahoma State and South Carolina. Damon Evans was arrested while the president was out of town on vacation, and the full details of his arrest did not come out until the Friday of a holiday weekend, yet he was forced to resign and his office was cleaned out within a week of the arrest.
I’d say quite a lot is being done, at multiple levels, to instill the expectation that ethical and upright behavior is expected of everyone. What, specifically, do you believe ought to be done that isn’t being done? By what measures other than those numerous examples cited above do you believe such a standard of conduct ought to be enforced?
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on Sep 3, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You know what would put an end to all this?
Hiring Joe Hamilton to serve as team role model and character educator. Shorty Ballgame was Damon Evans before Evans was. Except that in true Tech fashion he had no woman in the car.
Ok, to be fair
I didn’t read all 128 comments above. However, I have a suggestion, borrowed as it may be, from my son’s NAIA college basketball team. The coach has similar character to CMR and is a firm believer in class attendance, getting the degree, being an example to all other students and the community, and helping teammates to do the right thing. Perhaps the punishment for missing class would be helpful to our beloved football team as well. The consequence for missing class without having an appropriate excuse (suffering from a migraine which is a known issue for some athletes, having an illness requiring a doctor’s attention, that sort of thing) is to meet up outside the gym and running 5 miles. Miss two days, your teammates join you for your 10 mile run around campus, 3 days garners you and your teammates a nice 20 mile run. Everyone wants their teammates to like them and to be friends with them. Being “cool, hip, beast, sick,” or whatever the term du jour is, brings a certain swagger and happiness that is not easily matched. However, having your teammates dispise you based on actions you have performed, causes at least reason for most folks to pause and consider the consequences of said action.
Just a thought.
All right, I'll give Alec Ogletree credit:
Here is what he posted on his Facebook page:
Everything will be ok on this end and this is the first and last time you see me in the news or watever for something bad.
That’s the spirit, Alec.
Go 'Dawgs!
At least he's contrite
And seems to genuinely so. That’s something at least.
"I want anything wearing red and black to tear the head off anything that isn't."
- Lewis Grizzard
by RedCrake on Sep 3, 2010 11:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Probably a silly question but
If the theft occured on 15 June and Alec is a true freshman, unless he enrolled early (and I have no idea if he did or not), then it seems unlikely to me that he could have personally taken the helmet and may have acquired it legAlly as far as he knee. Of course I could also just be delirious.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
by podunkdawg on Sep 4, 2010 2:15 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
What would I do differently?
Believe me, I know how frustrating it is. The problem is, it’s not an enforcement issue, it’s a culture issue.
You ask, “What would I do differently?” As though a coach’s hands are tied until the police catch a player stealing or groping or assaulting or whatever. But at that point, it doesn’t matter.
The culture of an institution is set not in the courtroom, but on the practice field, in the meeting room, in the coach’s office. It’s not booting a player for getting arrested, it’s calling a kid in for missing curfew and letting him know that he’ll be sitting out the next game. It’s the way you handle all the little things we fans never hear about. It’s making sure your kids go to class. It’s finding out about the scuffle outside the club, where nobody was arrested, but a couple of players got into it with the bouncer. Sure, that happens at every school from time to time, but the coaches who care about character ask around, and find out about it, and deal with it internally before anyone ever gets arrested. And those schools somehow never make it on the Fulmer Cup board.
Other than your presumptuous and conclusory final sentence, . . .
. . . what evidence do you have that Mark Richt is doing those things any worse than any other coach?
No one has suggested that Mark Richt’s hands are tied, but he certainly is making sure his players are going to class, and I have no reason to doubt that he does everything humanly possible to find out about and address stories the rest of us never hear about.
I’m sorry, that comment came straight out of an Oliver Stone movie. The absence of evidence is the proof of an event’s occurrence?
Go 'Dawgs!
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