Are the Baylor Bears a Dealbreaker for the Pac-10's Expansion Plans?
Chartered in 1845 by the Republic of Texas and affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, Baylor is both the state's oldest institution of higher learning and the world's largest Baptist university. Established to be a servant of the church and of society, Baylor seeks to fulfill its calling through excellence in teaching and research, in scholarship and publication, and in service to the community, both local and global. The vision of its founders and the ongoing commitment of generations of students and scholars are reflected in the motto inscribed on the Baylor seal: Pro Ecclesia, Pro Texana-For Church, For Texas. . . .
Baylor is founded on the belief that God's nature is made known through both revealed and discovered truth. Thus, the University derives its understanding of God, humanity, and nature from many sources: the person and work of Jesus Christ, the biblical record, and Christian history and tradition, as well as scholarly and artistic endeavors. In its service to the church, Baylor's pursuit of knowledge is strengthened by the conviction that truth has its ultimate source in God and by a Baptist heritage that champions religious liberty and freedom of conscience. Without imposing religious conformity, Baylor expects the members of its community to support its mission. Affirming the value of intellectually informed faith and religiously informed education, the University seeks to provide an environment that fosters spiritual maturity, strength of character, and moral virtue.
From the Baylor University mission statement.
Full disclosure: I am a member of the United Methodist Church, where I serve as a lay leader in my home church and as a certified lay speaker in my district. I have attended Baptist services, and I have a number of family members who are Baptists. I have never been a Baptist, but my theological quibbles with the Baptists are scant and irrelevant to the present discussion. I have no meaningful quarrel with the above-quoted passage.
That said, I am neither a president nor an athletic director at a Pac-10 institution, which is pertinent because the Texas state legislature is pushing for Baylor to replace Colorado in the proposed expansion of the Pac-10 to the Pac-16 by adding six Big 12 schools to the league. That this switch represents a probable dealbreaker for the Pac-10 has received less ink (or, I guess, fewer pixels) than I would have expected; quite apart from the self-evident fact that the Buffaloes represent the best geographic and cultural fit for the Pac-10, the fact is that Pac-10 schools were skittish---needlessly so, in my opinion, but skittish nonetheless---about adding religious-affiliated BYU.
Yes, I understand that Baylor University and Brigham Young University are different institutions associated with different churches; I am not trying to equate them with one another or to argue that criticisms applicable to one necessary are applicable to the other. In particular, critics of BYU as a potential Pac-10 expansion target alleged a lack of academic freedom in Provo, and the mission statement cited above certainly seems to suggest that this would not be a problem in Waco.
Still, one has to wonder how comfortable the Pac-10 powers that be would find themselves with a school that places the Pro Ecclesia ("for church") ahead of the Pro Texana ("for Texas"), and certainly ahead of the Pro Placitum ("for conference"). I don’t see a problem with the Baylor mission statement, but some of the folks who had a problem with BYU might, provided they placed the emphasis where I have placed it here:
[T]he University derives its understanding of God, humanity, and nature from many sources: the person and work of Jesus Christ, the biblical record, and Christian history and tradition, as well as scholarly and artistic endeavors. In its service to the church, Baylor's pursuit of knowledge is strengthened by the conviction that truth has its ultimate source in God and by a Baptist heritage that champions religious liberty and freedom of conscience. Without imposing religious conformity, Baylor expects the members of its community to support its mission.
That strikes me as a perfectly reasonable Christian position. Then again, I am a Southerner and a Protestant. Might I feel differently if I were neither of those things, and I was the president of a Pac-10 university who already was squeamish about admitting the likes of BYU into the fold? Yeah, I might, at that. For instance, Baylor is affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, whose rather ecumenical position on abortion contains the following statement: "Abortion as birth control is not compatible with the gospel's call to reverence life."
My purpose is not to stake out a position on any theological or social issue, nor is it to start a discussion on such subjects. My point is simply that the religious affiliation of the Big 12 South school being pushed for inclusion in the possible expansion might be a bigger deal than some seem to suppose. Don’t discount the possibility that Baylor could be a dealbreaker for the Pac-10.
Go ‘Dawgs!
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The more I read about and consider this expansion process...
… the more I’m ok with having the SEC just sit back and watch everybody else scramble to catch up to them. The SEC doesn’t need to add more schools for distribution purposes, since it already has guaranteed national distribution outlets in CBS and ESPN. Because of this already-national audience, it’s also a more difficult proposition for the SEC to increase the overall size of the revenue pie to keep the “slices” going to each school the same size in an expansion scenario.
I previously thought that Texas was the lynchpin to SEC expansion, but as it seems to be shaking out now, Texas A&M seems to actually be the lynchpin. aTm brings a significant (and loyal) fan base, and although the SEC has never overtly been looking to break into Texas, I don’t think they would shy away from the prospect since the Aggies now seem to be proverbially “knocking on the door.”
If you add Texas A&M and then one team that could fit into the SEC East (Clemson, or possibly FSU or even West Virginia), you have a nice 14-team conference that continues to be built around (and controlled by) the foundation it originally used. (As Year2 points out, there’s something to be said for adding to the middle, not the top, of the conference.)
That’s only if the SEC big-wigs consider expansion necessary at all, though. We really do have a good thing going here… in fact, things in the SEC are better than they historically ever have before. I mean, hey, 4 straight national champions in football (and 5 of the last 7) is hard to argue with, along with an incredible dominance in virtually every other sport that the SEC sponsors. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it… right?
B, I'm going to have to take offense to this statement a little bit
Much as you probably wouldn’t like me to refer to all Southerners as ‘slack-jawed yokels’, not everyone in the Pac-10 is a bunch of atheists and agnostics. That said, the dynamic between religion and public institutions of higher learning is much different in the West than it is in the South. I make no judgments about whether this is good or bad – I’m a proud Catholic, and one of my cousins even attended Baylor – but religion in the sphere of higher eduction is a topic that Westerners approach very differently – especially given the strong academic credentials that many member of the current Pacific-10 Conference currently brandish. I’d appreciate a little respect.
You can certainly disagree with the methods, but the flagship public university system in the country – and quite possibly the world – is the University of California’s system of higher education. It’s essentially what’s driven the creation of everything from the defense industry to the technology hubs (IT in Silicon Valley, biotech in San Diego) in California.
A school that you probably don’t even think of on a regular basis – UCI (University of California, Irvine) – is more highly ranked than every other academic institution in the SEC, except for Vanderbilt. That’s the fifth-best public university in the UC system – after Cal, UCLA, UC Davis, and UCSD. Clemson and UGA would rank as the 6th best institution in the UC system, incidentally – right above that school I’m sure you’ve heard of…UC Santa Cruz. (Actually, come to think of it, if you’ve seen Pulp Fiction, you’re probably familiar with UC Santa Cruz).
Anyhow, my point: the Pac-10 heretofore has taken its academics pretty seriously, and one of its guiding principles has been to ensure academic freedom and integrity of each of its member institutions, and many religious universities haven’t exactly been pillars of academic freedom. And before you start in on ‘those damn liberals from Berkeley’, might I remind you that it was ‘those damn liberals from Berkeley’ who, y’know, hired John Yoo.
Another point to consider; Baylor is significantly close in profile to another west coast school – Pepperdine. Most schools in the Pac-10 have been leery of Pepperdine’s academic bonafides for years; incidentally, Baylor’s new president, Ken Starr, also happens to be the immediate past president of Pepperdine’s law school. And yes, it’s that Ken Starr.
Ken Starr is also somewhat notorious in California for having backed the Proposition 8 movement, by…oh, serving as lead counsel for Prop 8 supporters during the ensuing challenge to the Supreme Court. While he was president of Pepperdine.
Starr also is somewhat less famous in California for having previously been named the head of Pepperdine’s School of Public Policy in 1996, which he later had to withdraw from in 1998. The primary reason for his withdrawl was not his involvement in the Lewinsky and Whitewater investigation, but rather because immediately before Starr’s appointment as the Dean of this school, the School of Public Policy had been founded with a large endowment from billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife, who was in the midst of a personal crusade against Bill Cinton. Gee, that sure is a coincidence. The dude investigating Clinton just happened to be appointed the head of the school of Public Policy that Scaife endowed.
My point is thus: regardless of your political stance, this is exactly the type of political grand-standing that Westerners expect their collegiate presidents to not take, so yeah, color me extremely unimpressed with Ken Starr being hired as a university president for exactly the reasons listed above.
Also, a cursory review of the Baylor website, where they have a news release with Ken Starr basically begging the TX legislature to get involved and force them in to the Pac-10, makes me want to vomit a little.
I apologise for getting slightly political – I mean to pass no judgment on one’s political beliefs – my family is equally balanced between a large number of both Democrats and Republicans. I merely wanted to point out that the distrust of Baylor – and religious institutions in general – has a much larger history and context than perhaps you’re thinking. I consider myself a fairly religious person, but I would literally be sick to my stomach if a university that employed an individual as blatantly political as Ken Starr in the position of University President would be invited to the Pac-10.
by CAJason80 on Jun 8, 2010 3:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, CAJason80.
You’ve basically encapsulated my point in greater detail.
I went to great lengths to be non-judgmental in the above posting; while my own views probably are pretty apparent, they aren’t relevant to the discussion. The crux of this issue is this: Baylor is a religious-affiliated institution which does not shy away from its denominational affiliation; the Pac-10 contains multiple institutions which are skeptical of religious influences upon higher education; the two might not make a good mix.
That’s not to accuse the Pac-10 of being full of atheists or to accuse Baylor of disrespecting academic freedom, it’s just to say the two have different views, and that fundamental incompatibility might make a merger unpalatable to the West Coast BCS league.
Go 'Dawgs!
You think you're wary about Ken Starr
think how we Texans feel, knowing he is trying to get legislators to use public resources (read: taxpayer money) to affect the athletic future of a private, religiously-affiliated school
As someone of similar thought to the liberals out in the West
I can kind of see their position on this. Not all the way, because personally, I’m of the stripe that believes you can think whatever crazy thing you want so long as it causes no harm to others. However, I still understand the reluctance to invite a member that goes against the majority of institution’s overall institutional worldviews.
I’m sure a bunch of people here would balk at admitting Cal-Berkly (if Geography was thrown out, obviously) because of their perceived differences with the majority of Southerners.
And good pickup on the abortion thing. I doubt that’s the #1 reason the Pac-10 commissioner would balk at Baylor, but it is symptomatic of why he might in total view them as a bad fit for his conference expansion plans.
Of course, the other thing...
… is that forcing Baylor in would be forcing Colorado out, and that’s probably why this doesn’t fly more than religious issues. The Pac 10 wants Texas & Colorado. They’re okay with A&M and Oklahoma (well, Stanford will grumble). But Tech and Okie State are only along for the ride to keep various state governments happy. Adding Baylor and removing Colorado from the deal is probably a bridge too far.
The religious affiliation would certainly make some of the pac-10 schools a little skittish but more than that the whole point of the expansion is to increase TV revenues through the creation of a Big10esque network. From that standpoint leaving out Colorado loses millions because you lose the Denver market.
Baylor & football
I really don’t remember Baylor’s Southern Baptist position on abortion affecting the operations of the Big 12. Do any of you? I don’t think Wake Forest’s Southern Baptist position on abortion has affected the ACC. Do any of you? Does anyone turn down Notre Dame or Boston College for a game because of the Roman Catholic position on abortion? Not in my memory! Old T. Kyle King seems to be just rootin’ for a grub worm with all that foolishness about Baylor and the PAC-10 expansion business. I wonder if that’s the reason the Big Ten (really the Big 11) is queasy about Notre Dame joining…Oh, wait a minute….They have begged Notre Dame to join’em for years, haven’t they? I actually don’t think BYU’s religious affiliation has anything to do with why BYU may not be in the PAC 10 expansion mix either. Oh..and I happen to be a Baylor Bear Backing Presbyterian.
If you'd worked at it, you might've found a few more straw men there, harleyj.
Here’s the example you forgot, and the reason you forgot it:
“I don’t think BYU’s LDS position on a myriad of social issues affected the Pac-10’s willingness to give them a look.”
The reason you finessed that example with qualifiers you had not previously included is that the Pac-10—-the only conference whose views are pertinent to this conversation—-is, in fact, unwilling to consider Brigham Young at least partly for that reason.
As the headline and tenor of the above posting indicate, I’m not stating as a certainty that Baylor’s Baptist affiliation will be a dealbreaker, but it’s worth asking whether the disparities between the Baptists’ views on certain issues and the Pac-10’s aversion to BYU’s religious affiliation might have an impact. I’m not saying it should be relevant or criticizing either side’s perspective; I’m simply saying the two sides’ views are incompatible, which might make a difference to a conference that appears to have considered that relevant in the past.
I regret it if asking reasonable questions in the face of a rapidly-shifting landscape constitutes “rootin’ for a grub worm” in your eyes.
Go 'Dawgs!
it's not as if you HAD to tell us you were a Baylor fan.
your unique position on this topic (Baylor apologist) subtly condemned you in my mind long before your embarrassing admission.
It's pretty grim, actually.
My ex-wife (literally from Texas), grew up in Austin and DFW her entire life. And I don’t think there was a single conversation involving Baylor where the phrase “Baylor Baptist Bears” wasn’t thrown out. Suffice it to say, that if Texans point out your school is a little too Baptist for the Lone Star State, then, imagine how that will play in Eugene or Palo Alto?
"Hush now, let it go now. I know it's time to go. Time to let this fall from my hands" VNV Nation, "From My Hands"
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 8, 2010 8:27 AM EDT reply actions
Baylor
For the information of Stuck in the Plains and T Kyle King, when I coached football at Baylor back in the early Grant Teaff era we had more Roman Catholics on our team than Protestants or Southern Baptists…and, in fact, there is no church affiliation involved in being accepted as a student at Baylor. Under y’all’s rationalization, had Grant Teaff—a very devout Southern Baptist—accepted USC’s offer to be head coach, the “liberals” in California would have had a conniption fit…Actually, I seriously doubt it.
As for Colorado and the PAC 10, Colorado actually has an over-all weak athletic program with virtually no championships since the creation of the Big 12. On the other hand, only Texas and Texas A&M have more championships than Baylor since the creation of the Big 12. In other words, Baylor has won more Big 12 championships than Texas Tech, Nebraska, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Missouri, Colorado or Iowa State…and on the private dime; not the taxpayers dime.
I am a liberal Texas Presbyterian who has lived in California (Palm Springs) for 11 years.
It's not about 'church affiliation' or 'being accepted' to Baylor
It’s about the fundamental difference in the mission statement of a religiously affiliated insitution vs. a secular instutution. I kinda’ figured someone would bring up the USC example – since USC was originally founded a private, religiously affiliated university. However, here’s the mission statement of USC (emphasis mine):
The central mission of the University of Southern California is the development of human beings and society as a whole through the cultivation and enrichment of the human mind and spirit. The principal means by which our mission is accomplished are teaching, research, artistic creation, professional practice and selected forms of public service.
Our first priority as faculty and staff is the education of our students, from freshmen to postdoctorals, through a broad array of academic, professional, extracurricular and athletic programs of the first rank. The integration of liberal and professional learning is one of USC’s special strengths. We strive constantly for excellence in teaching knowledge and skills to our students, while at the same time helping them to acquire wisdom and insight, love of truth and beauty, moral discernment, understanding of self, and respect and appreciation for others.
And, for reference, here’s the mission statement for Baylor:
Pro Ecclesia. Baylor is founded on the belief that God’s nature is made known through both revealed and discovered truth. Thus, the University derives its understanding of God, humanity, and nature from many sources: the person and work of Jesus Christ, the biblical record, and Christian history and tradition, as well as scholarly and artistic endeavors. In its service to the church, Baylor’s pursuit of knowledge is strengthened by the conviction that truth has its ultimate source in God and by a Baptist heritage that champions religious liberty and freedom of conscience. Without imposing religious conformity, Baylor expects the members of its community to support its mission. Affirming the value of intellectually informed faith and religiously informed education, the University seeks to provide an environment that fosters spiritual maturity, strength of character, and moral virtue.
That’s a pretty substantial difference. While I’m passing no judgment on the merit of either approach, Baylor’s mission statement is wholly intertwined with a Christian world-view – and only a Christian world-view. I highlighted probably one of the more important parts the mission statement – while Baylor certainly doesn’t ‘require’ you to be a Baptist in order to attend the university – their mission statement itself basically says you need to agree with its mission as a Christianty-first university.
Mission statements like this are why – as a matter of supporting the mission – the univeristy is less likely to hire and employ people whose worldview they potentially disagree with (ie, someone like John Yoo at Berkeley), as well as encourage the university president to serve as lead counsel for an issue within the ‘Pro Ecclesia’ space as part of the Christian worldview. Again, I’m not passing judgment on those decisions, but it’s fairly easy to see how the mission statement of the university impacts those decisions, and places them in context.
Finally, I also really hate ‘well, this university does this all on the private dime, not the public dime, so it must be better’. The public institutions of higher education are what made this country great. It’d be nice if some people remembered that from time to time.
I am so g*dd*mn sick of Baylor apologists bringing this up
and on the private dime; not the taxpayers dime
IF you coached at Baylor, as you claim, you should know damn well that NOT A SINGLE TAXPAYER DOLLAR goes to any of the athletic departments of any of the Texas public universities in the Big 12. There is no ‘taxpayers dime’ going to athletics for any of the Texas schools, because that is prevented by law in Texas. This b*llsh*t strawman is just an EXCUSE by Baylor apologists to make themselves feel better about their continued failures in football, and I’m tired of it.

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