Are the Florida State Seminoles Better Off That Mark Richt is the Head Coach of the Georgia Bulldogs?
by T Kyle King on May 3, 2010 10:18 PM EDT
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PrintAlthough Senator Blutarsky made short work of this article already, I thought an additional retort was warranted. It is one thing when Stewart Mandel begins yammering on about the probable perceptions of hypothetical Montanans; such pieces obviously are nonsense, so a single retort likely is one more retort than really is required.
The examination of the putative consequences for the Florida State Seminoles of Christian LeMay’s verbal commitment to the Georgia Bulldogs by my colleagues at fellow SB Nation weblog Tomahawk Nation, however, presents a detailed case in analytical fashion, and therefore warrants more than a mere cursory rejoinder. The author of the posting clearly has thought through his position, and he lays out his argument in painstaking fashion. Unfortunately, the facts he follows to his preferred conclusions largely are speculative, misconstrued, or false. Consider, for instance, the following excerpt:
The most important of these is that it affords Mark Richt greater job security. Mark Richt is a good coach, but good is the enemy of great and FSU fans should realize that Richt at Georgia is a very good thing for the 'Noles. Florida State does very well recruiting in South Georgia and routinely beats UGA for players within a 40 mile radius of Valdosta. Richt might talk a big game and could even win a few battles against the 'Noles given his renewed efforts in the region. But consistently beating the state school for highly prized prospects in Georgia is an important part of the 'Noles plan to get back on top. And Richt is much, much better than the alternative. What's the alternative, you ask? Why none other than Kirby Smart of Alabama.
Smart is considered the heir apparent to the UGA job whenever Georgia decides that Richt simply won't do. Granted, the Dawgs seem pretty content winning 8-9 games per season (or to put another way, losing 3+ games a season, which Georgia has averaged more than over the last 4 years), but most consider Richt on the hot seat. Smart is a beloved figure at Georgia after walking on and becoming a team captain. But he's even more beloved in South Georgia where he played high school ball in Bainbridge. Smart is an excellent recruiter and the last thing Florida State needs is for the state school to use Nick Saban's organizational recruiting techniques (that FSU is already using thanks to Jimbo Fisher) in South Georgia. Add to the inherent advantage of being the state school and that Smart is a better recruiter than Richt, that Smart knows the area perhaps better than anyone and would be immediately welcomed into all South Georgia high schools, and it's easy to see why FSU fans want Richt to stay at UGA for as long as possible.
Richt will be starting a promising redshirt-freshman quarterback in Aaron Murray this season. Young, talented quarterbacks buy coaches additional time that they might not otherwise be afforded. Adding Lemay to the mix only buys Richt more time. And who knows, maybe he can take Georgia from good to great (doubtful given his team's complete lack of attention to detail and killer instinct). . . .
Moreover, Smart is ready to be a head coach right now. If Richt stays at Georgia two or three more years, I can't see Smart staying as Alabama's DC waiting for UGA to implode.
First of all, it appears a new meme has taken hold in Tallahassee. Previously, it was claimed that Mark Richt would be FSU-bound as soon as Bobby Bowden retired, but, now that such a possibility (if it ever existed) has been taken off the board, we are told that Kirby Smart is assured of being a better head coach than Mark Richt. Why on earth would fans of a program recently taken over by Jimbo Fisher, after believing for years that Mark Richt was Bobby Bowden’s heir apparent, be so insistent that a former Nick Saban disciple would be better prepared to become a head coach after previously serving only as a coordinator than Mark Richt would be? Football hath no fury like a fan base scorned.
This is not to say that Coach Richt is above criticism; he isn’t, which is why he has received his share of it (and probably then some) in the last couple of years. Moreover, I would be willing to take some of these criticisms from certain fan bases; if an Alabama fan or a Florida fan argued that Mark Richt lacked the killer instinct of a Nick Saban or an Urban Meyer, I would be hard pressed to argue otherwise.
However, I don’t quite see where an ACC fan has any business questioning Coach Richt’s killer instinct. I believe I saw a bit of killer instinct on the sideline when Coach Richt bawled out his players while upsetting the Atlantic Coast Conference champions on the road. Surely there was some sort of killer instinct involved in the compilation of Coach Richt’s 12-1 record against ACC teams, right?
Georgia fans evidently "seem pretty content winning 8-9 games per season (or to put another way, losing 3+ games a season, which Georgia has averaged more than over the last 4 years)." That parenthetical aside is an exquisitely artful way of disingenuously culling inconvenient facts (facts such as the existence of the first five years of Mark Richt’s tenure in the Classic City, for instance), but where is the evidence of this purported contentment? Pick a Dawg Sports posting at random and tell me you think it was written by someone who was content in his Georgia fandom.
In reality, Bulldog fans’ reaction to winning eight games in 2009 was to demand the firing of the defensive coordinator; actually, some Bulldog fans’ reaction to winning ten games in 2008 was to demand the firing of the defensive coordinator. Even if evidence existed to suggest that we were "pretty content" with winning eight or nine games a year, how would anyone know, since the Bulldogs have won at least ten games in six of the last eight seasons? The two exceptions---a nine-win season in 2006 and an eight-win season in 2009---both resulted in Mark Richt making a coordinator change. When we don’t win ten, heads roll; sometimes, when we do win ten, there are calls for heads to roll. Those facts are indicative of contentment in the same sense that "Charlie’s Angels" was a show about law enforcement.
Beyond that, I’m not sure which claim is more preposterous, the latest placement of Mark Richt on the hot seat or the elevation of Kirby Smart to "beloved" status in Bulldog Nation. Had Willie Martinez not been fired last year, another substandard season in 2010 might have put Mark Richt on the hot seat in 2011; the clean sweep of the defensive staff, an earth-shaking shift in Athens that the piece quoted above fails even to acknowledge, put that possibility to rest. Even SEC gadfly Paul Finebaum couldn’t whip up much of a froth over the "Mark Richt is on the hot seat" meme. As for Kirby Smart, he might well be welcomed back to his alma mater with open arms if circumstances required, but, right now, there is little goodwill between the coach and the program that produced him.
Nevertheless, the Florida State faithful feel free to serve up unsupported assertions and ignore uncomfortable realities while offering such howlers as the claims that Georgia is "implod[ing]," Mark Richt’s program displays a "complete lack of attention to detail," and the Bulldogs cannot out-recruit the Seminoles in South Georgia.
What makes these claims so laughable is the pedigree of the attributes being criticized. Mark Richt plucked Florida State’s recruiting coordinator, John Lilly, from Tallahassee to serve on his staff in Athens. As Rob Suggs set forth in painstaking detail, Mark Richt patterned his program on the Seminoles’. However many dips the ‘Dawgs have encountered in recent seasons, they never found themselves looking up at Wake Forest on an annual basis. Coming from FSU fans, these critiques can only provoke a response of, "I know you are, but what am I?" After all, Georgia’s record against Urban Meyer contains one more win than Florida State’s does.
There are more than a few hints of envy and desperation in Tomahawk Nation’s attempt to show why it helps the Seminoles to have the Bulldogs land a high-caliber recruit who will assist Georgia in its efforts to recruit other elite players. In truth, the FSU faithful are whistling past the graveyard. Anyone who doubts that needs to consider this:
| Team | 1990 | 1991 | 1992 | 1993 | 1994 | 1995 | 1996 | 1997 | 1998 | 1999 | 2000 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Florida State | 10-2 | 11-2 | 11-1 | 12-1 | 10-1-1 | 10-2 | 11-1 | 11-1 | 11-2 | 12-0 | 11-2 |
| Georgia | 4-7 | 9-3 | 10-2 | 5-6 | 6-4-1 | 6-6 | 5-6 | 10-2 | 9-3 | 8-4 | 8-4 |
| Team | 2001 | 2002 | 2003 | 2004 | 2005 | 2006 | 2007 | 2008 | 2009 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Florida State | 8-4 | 9-5 | 10-3 | 9-3 | 8-5 | 7-6 | 7-6 | 9-4 | 7-6 |
| Georgia | 8-4 | 13-1 | 11-3 | 10-2 | 10-3 | 9-4 | 11-2 | 10-3 | 8-5 |
The first chart compares the Bulldogs to the Seminoles during the eleven seasons in which Mark Richt was a Florida State assistant coach. The second chart compares the Bulldogs to the Seminoles during the nine seasons in which Mark Richt has been the Georgia head coach. If FSU fans think they’re better off having Mark Richt in Athens, they need to quit giving money to the athletics program and start giving money to the math department, because that’s the area of the Tallahassee campus most obviously in need of an upgrade.
Go ‘Dawgs!
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Hilarious...
I live in Florida and last fall an FSU grad threatened to punch me in the face during one of their losses (probably South Florida). What was my crime? He suggested CMR would go back to FSU and I said “why would he make a lateral move?”
FSU fans have been hiding under rocks in Florida the past five years. I’m sure they’ll be loud and proud if they start winning again.
Disagree
We haven’t been hiding under rocks at all. We’ve been stunned beyond disbelief at the depths our program fell to. We’ve always been around though and rooting for you to beat florida every year.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
No dog in the fight,
but you flatter FSU by calling that a lateral move. The only benefit in a move from Athens to Tallahassee is an easier schedule.
by GwinnettGamecock on May 3, 2010 10:55 PM EDT reply actions
Theoretical ACC homer response
HUFF HUFF HUFF MIAMI HUFF HUFF HUFF NON-CONFERENCE SCHEDULE HUFF HUFF HUFF
While I freely admit our team has fallen the past decade...
We do play a tougher schedule than you guys do quite often including the past two years.
I don't think that is really so either
Remember that Miami has also fallen far from its former elite status. UGA plays a pretty solid OOC schedule – expecially since Tech is pretty good these days. Two years ago, UGA played Bama as well.
Much obliged, skigator93
I wasn’t going to contest what TuckNole said, because I couldn’t tell you for sure what Florida State’s non-conference schedule looked like the last couple of years, but I think it’d be tough to fault the Bulldogs for their scheduling these days. Facing Arizona State, Georgia Tech, and Oklahoma State (two of them on the road) in addition to an eight-game SEC schedule is nothing at which to scoff.
Go 'Dawgs!
I would fault UGA for scheduling unnecessary games in which they could lose
The amount of hype for the SEC right now is at a ridiculous high. Even SEC teams that aren’t any good benefit from the hype. UGA has to play Tech, I assume, but (and FSU is canceling future series that are unnecessary since we have UF, the ultimate late-season springboard game) there is no reason for UGA to play anything but three cupcakes + GT. We must fit our scheduling to the current system. And the current system sucks. But failing to understand the rules and maximize under them surely sucks more.
I can see some schools (Miami) that cannot afford to schedule the wins. Wins cost money and elite level programs like UGA who have the cash to pay for wins against the bad 20 1A teams need to do so. GT, two WAC/ Sun Belt/ Conf USA games, and one 1AA. Scheduling two 1AAs seems to draw the negative ire of the media.
From where I sit, UGA should not have scheduled:
Ok State
AZST
2008
AZST
2007
OKST
You never know when you have a team that could play in the NC. And a team like UGA conceivable run the table in any year. But it must give itself the best possible chance to do so. Games that are lose-able, even when your team is a prohibitive favorite, are unnecessary and in this era, quite dumb.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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in all fairness
If you lose games to “pretty good teams” you really don’t deserve a shot at the title. Also, regarding the “SEC hype,” it will die down some when some other conference actually wins a national title again. It’s been so long since that has happened, I can barely remember who the last non-SEC champ was.
Again, you can tell the importance of your conference championship when nosebleed tickets go for $500. Compare that to other conference championship games which have no hope of selling out.
Like losing to Ole Miss at home?
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Exactly
If you schedule Ole Miss as an out of conference game and lose to them, you are not likely to play for a title.
Notice also I said “games” not “game.” Losing a game at home to a tough conference opponent isn’t exactly embarassing. Not to mention it was a 1 point loss on a missed kick. You know what it’s like to lose on a kick, right wide left? or is it wide right? I tihnk both.
Oklahoma, UF, Bama, BYU, Colorado (the year they didn't suck), USF all within the last three years + 2010
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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LOL, this guy. Hey, at least he showed up here after all his other nonsense.
Lest we forget Georgia also played Boise when most wouldn’t want any part of that, anywhere. We’ve played Colorado & Bama too, always play Florida, so how bout we compare the rest?
Boise > Oklahoma. (OK so bowl win aside, at the very least are equal to…)
Tech > BYU (records aside, BYU has twice lost to AZ lately when going OOC themselves FFS)
OK St > USF
AZ St > UAB
What else ya got? Although don’t worry, I don’t expect the guy who claimed the ‘only reason our rushing got better toward the end of last year was because the schedule got easier’ to concede anything about schedules. FWIW, we also get Clemson back on ours soon, and had also scheduled a series with Cincinnati until they backed out.
In Bud's defense . . .
. . . that’s still a better non-conference schedule than most teams play. While there’s certainly an argument to be made that our schedule has been tougher, theirs hasn’t exactly been weak, so I’ll give them credit for that.
Also, Bud’s made several comments in response to this posting, both in this thread and at his own weblog, so he hasn’t exactly been ducking the issues raised in these parts.
Go 'Dawgs!
Great Response
When i read the post a couple of days ago it was so random and the logic seemed to come from left field that i couldn’t get the taste of a troll out of my mouth.
What i found even more confusing in this post is that in the comments they go on and on about “good beling the enemy of great.” when they’ve put up with mediocre to bad teams in the ACC no less, when they have the great recruiting state of FL to pick from. Like you said the years we’ve had 8 and 9 win seasons, changes were made. I understand they may have stuck with bowden a few extra years because of his legacy and all that he did for the university. But don’t beat your chest with this “we don’t settle for anything less than great” stuff when you are posting 7 win seasons 2 years in a row.
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
I Corinthians 9:24
There were some FSU fans that were content with winning 7 games every season as long as the coach remained.
We aren’t that group. Good is the enemy of great because it invites complacency. We don’t beat our chests "we don’t settle for anything less than great stuff". It’s more like "we won’t settle for anything less than maximizing our potential again".
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
The problems don't start at 7 wins, it ends with 7 wins.
The problems start LONG before that, but you have to open your eyes to see where it’s going.
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
Don't you think that UGA is doing everything to maximize its potential?
I think that’s the my main problem, is that you all have assumed that we aren’t doing what we can to be great. And we just don’t agree with the trashing of our coach, not that we can’t handle it, we just don’t agree with the argument put forth to support it. Believe me we don’t have visions of grandeur about our team, we know there are things needed improvement, and there is no one else is better to take us there than CMR.
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
I Corinthians 9:24
by Southern Dawg on May 4, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not trashing your coach
Every coach has their +’s and -‘s. The article is only saying that one team’s loss (UGA) is another’s gain (FSU). The author is also stating that if the problem is not being corrected then there must be a flaw in the system (remember, this is coming from FSU fans who have seen what happens when the system is flawed). Being that Richt is a Bowden disciple, it would not seem to be a far-fetched idea that he was trained in an out of date system.
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
Yeah, it’s far fetched. Just because your Hall of Fame coach ran your program into the ground doesn’t mean Richt is doing the same thing at Georgia. Whatever you guys want to believe is fine, just don’t act surprised UGA fans think it’s crazy.
You don't have to run a program into the ground
but if you pick up just a few of those flaws it certainly doesn’t help.
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
Perhaps . . .
. . . but Mark Richt has demonstrated a good deal more adaptability between 45 and 50 than Bobby Bowden did between 80 and 85. I suspect that’s true for most folks, but Coach Richt certainly has made some meaningful changes in the last few years, starting with turning over the play-calling duties in 2006.
Go 'Dawgs!
yes i saw that
While you think you are insulting my intelligence, i was actually trying to give you the benefit of the improved 9-4 season in 2008 and not settling for 7 wins in 2009 since Bobby actually left that year. So there i helped you out.
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
I Corinthians 9:24
by Southern Dawg on May 4, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
You Said What I Thought
The only thing I take exception to is calling Finebaum an SEC gadfly. That’s an insult to gadflies. Finebaum is an Alabama shill.
by Hogbody Spradlin on May 4, 2010 7:31 AM EDT reply actions
Zing!
Football hath no fury like a fan base scorned.
No truer words were ever blogged.
…I’m not sure which claim is more preposterous, the latest placement of Mark Richt on the hot seat or the elevation of Kirby Smart to “beloved” status in Bulldog Nation.
If Todd Grantham’s now and future defenses hold opponents scoreless for the next 10 years, it still won’t heal the wound inflicted by Kirby Smart. Beloved? Heir apparant? Kirby Smart will never coach at UGA. Ever. Any suggestion by an FSU blogger to the contrary only shows how out of touch he is regarding what is going on in Dawg Nation, which doesn’t surprise me since he is, after all, an FSU blogger. And we don’t need Kirby Smart to recruit well in south Georgia. We just need Mark Richt to commit himself to all counties south of the Fall Line and we’ll be fine. And from recent reports, he’s doing just that.
Richt ain’t going anywhere and Half-Ass U still can’t get over it.
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
concur, completely
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
You're picking on details while missing the boat completely!
Of course FSU bloggers don’t know all the behind the scenes stuff at UGA. The POINT of the article is that FSU is beating them in recruiting south Georgia, and that doesn’t look like it will turn around soon. Also, only losers use another teams record as their defense. I couldn’t care less if a Western Tennessee fan ripped FSU for letting Bowden destroy the program he built. If it’s true, it’s true! What got FSU into BIG trouble was excusing failures instead of confronting them head-on.
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
Also, only losers use another teams record as their defense.
Or, only losers use another team’s recruiting effort in South Georgia as their defense.
Exactly what was I defending there?
I’m simply pointing out that Richt is a disciple of Bowden. Bobby is a great guy from what I’ve heard, but has NO idea how to operate an elite program NOW. The boat started sinking LONG before it plunged into the abyss! I’d hate to see the same happen there just because it helps UF. By the way, it’s going to get worse before it gets better with recruiting. We now have 2 National Recruiters of the Year on our staff.
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
Can't get over it?
Did you even read the article, the author was stating it benefits FSU to have CMR stay at UGA for as long as possible.
by NationWideNole on May 5, 2010 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Recruiting
Dawgs, the focus of the TN article that prompted this response was recruiting. One claim was that FSU benefits from LeMay committing to UGA rather than an ACC program like Clemson, who were in his top 5 (probably top 2 or 3). [Note: the title of the TN article is “Why A Kid From North Carolina (Christian Lemay) Committing To The Georgia Bulldogs Is Good News For Florida State.”] The more general claim was that UGA hasn’t been the dominant program in the SEC East and this has benefitted FSU and their ability to recruit in Georgia in the past few years. The stuff about Smart is speculation but the point is simply that FSU benefits from a UGA program that isn’t dominating the SEC (East). I do think that Richt has done the right things lately and getting a verbal from LeMay is also a good indicator, so perhaps you’re on the the right track….
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
Thanks, TLHWG
I agree with your assessment of the central thrust of the Tomahawk Nation article, which is why I found its ill-informed broadsides against Mark Richt and assumptions about the future of the program so odd and so off-putting. If the posting had simply stated, “It’s good for us that Georgia got a top quarterback out of North Carolina, because it makes it more likely that Nick Marshall will come to Florida State,” that would have been unexceptional and unobjectionable. The stuff about Kirby Smart came completely out of left field, though, and there seemed to be little justification for such visceral expressions of disdain for a team that has never been a Florida State rival.
I appreciate your measured and thoughtful response. I wish the posting you are summarizing had been as well-reasoned, reasonable, and focused as your comment was. Much obliged.
Go 'Dawgs!
Recruiting. Good call. So let's take a look...
Other than Greg Reid (whom you all admit it makes sense for since he’s a lot closer to Tally than Athens anyway) what exactly do FSU fans have to be beating their chests about regarding recruiting?
I assure you – No, really… I ASSURE YOU, that FSU has not out-recruited UGA lately, in the state of Georgia, nor anywhere else other than maybe your own home state. But to what end? What have been the end results of your supposed mighty stronghold over the swamplands of South Georgia?? Exactly. If that’s all you’re able to do with all of that supposed talent, I guess we didn’t really miss out on much after all huh??
Without dissecting the last decade’s worth of recruiting class by class, simply because I don’t care to, still… I’m fairly certain that if you compared the number of blue chip studs who actually produced on the field that held both UGA & FSU offers, more signed with UGA that also had FSU offers than vice versa. And, again… even the ones you got, what have you really done with em??
We know we've wasted talent. We also recently fired our HC for it...
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
And we recently fired our defensive coordinator and two other assistants for it . . .
. . . without ever once going 7-6. Which program is being more tolerant of mediocrity?
Go 'Dawgs!
You're preaching to the choir...
We had to reach rock bottom before we made a change. Still doesn’t change that having Richt there is good for us.
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
Here are some data on 2007-2010 recruiting in GA
19 of Georgia’s top 40 prospects from 2007-2010 have left the state. FSU, Tenn. and UF biggest benefactors. UA could breakthrough in 2011.
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
This is a pretty weak rebuttal
I expected you to come with something substantially stronger if you were going to even respond at all.
Your charts illustrate nothing more than a team’s record; a synopsis of the on field performance of 22+ college kids and the coaches who instructed them. Unfortunately, those charts can be easily manipulated to support a wide array of arguments, some of which are completely absurd. Your article is a prime example. Furthermore, it completely ignores the focus of the TN article. Your article is nothing more than an attempt at bashing FSU out of frustration over reading something you didn’t like and not having a solid response to it.
You will meet plenty of idiotic fans from ANY fan base (FSU, UGA, UF, etc.) and I am sure that some of ours are convinced that bringing in Richt from UGA was the best thing for our program, and that it was a certainty to happen. Unfortunately, these people are not really all that bright, or they just aren’t analyzing all the facts enough to give a well-thought out opinion.
If FSU is going to push out its future Hall of Fame coach because the program has been wallowing in mediocrity, why would they turn and hire a coach who has failed to take UGA to a National Championship and only won one SEC championship in all his years there, despite fielding several very talented teams? You guys had a prime opportunity to get there a couple seasons ago (ranked in the top 3 nationally heading into the season), and you fell flat on your faces. The past few seasons, UGA has been an afterthought in the discussion of SEC contenders when everything played out. Why would FSU want to bring the HC responsible for that over to our program? Thanks, but no thanks.
Like it or not, FSU and a host of other schools have had a lot of success hoarding talent out of South Georgia. That area of the state is not one of Richt’s strongest areas. FSU has a strong relationship with several schools in that area, and bringing in Smart would negatively affect our position there.
You spent so much of your article taking shots at FSU, defending Mark Richt, and saying how Richt isn’t on the hot seat. If Dawg Nation feels that way, great, you should feel good about it. The point of the TN article was this: So does everyone else!
You are confused about many things . . .
. . . including the number of SEC championships Mark Richt has won, which fan base began taking shots at the other (hint: this posting is a response), and the irrefutable fact that, when Mark Richt was in Tallahassee, Florida State was a substantially better program than Georgia, and, since Mark Richt has been in Athens, Georgia has been a substantially better program than Florida State.
Go 'Dawgs!
Correlation does not equal Causation.
I’d say Richt is the reason for the improvement of UGA. He, however, is not the reason for FSU’s downfall.
Team Gold
To what would you attribute FSU's downfall, then?
Because since Mark Richt was announced as the Georgia coach, FSU has: scored two points total in a national championship game, stopped showing up in the top ten every year like they used to, fired Richt’s replacement as OC (who was also the legendary head coach’s son), and forced out said legendary head coach for having not won anything in the past nine years since Richt left.
So unless Richt’s leaving just happened to correlate with one of the greatest head coaches of all time forgetting how to coach… seems an awful lot like causation to me.
Bowden by a country mile
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Absolutely
Bowden could have hired a real OC after Richt left and we wouldn’t have missed a beat. He could have continued to have smart up and coming members of his staff instead of family friends, but he didn’t. He ran that program into the ground. Richt leaving was a catalyst in that it merely opened the door for Bowden to run one of the most talented teams in the country into the ground.
Bud, I see you’re hard at work, how’s that IP studying going?
Team Gold
By wouldn't have missed a beat
I mean offensively for the next couple years. Had all other things remained the same besides the OC hire, the ship still would have gone down it just would have taken longer. Our talent level in 01-04 was ridiculous.
Team Gold
Saying that you "could have hired a real OC after Richt left and (not) missed a beat,". . .
. . . implies that Richt was a real OC, and his absence caused FSU to “miss a beat.” So, according to your implication, the primary cause of the downfall of the FSU program was the loss of your offensive coordinator, followed by his replacement with a man who was less competent.
Now, please forgive me, because I’m just a slow hick who grew up in south Georgia, but how does that lead to the conclusion that Richt’s departure had nothing to do with the downfall of the FSU program?
For that matter, the “correlation does not equal causation” argument could also be used to say that the departure of Erk Russell had nothing to do with the fact that (after Herschel Walker left) the Georgia Bulldogs never even sniffed an SEC title for 20 years… and the argument would be completely wrong in that case, as well.
Richt's departure was a symptom of the problem
All successful programs expect attrition among assistants. The key to sustaining a successful program is to continue to fill vacancies will high quality replacements. Our previous head coach filled positions based on patronage rather than qualification. The old boy network was our downfall.
>>---l>
I never said Richt leaving wasn't a factor
He was a real OC. A very good one. I’ve never said otherwise. What I said was him leaving was not the cause of the program’s downfall. The program’s downfall was caused by the hiring of a know-nothing family member of an aging legend. The point is there were plenty of candidates who could have replaced Richt after he left, him leaving wasn’t the cause. Coordinators leave schools quite often without the school falling into years of shit football. The problem was that his leaving exposed Bowden’s nepotism. RIcht wasn’t the offensive coordinator for the entire period FSU was a dominant program, he replaced someone who left and we didn’t miss a beat. Like I said, the problem was created by an inferior replacement, not him leaving.
Team Gold
That's two more points than UGA has scored in a MNC game since Richt was announced as head coach.
Can I be on Team Gold??
It was a play off one of the points made by TKK in the above article.
We’re playing by the house rules.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
That's the Nishun Maru. Kills whales not dawgs.
Can I be on Team Gold??
Haven't won anything?
Since Richt left FSU has won the ACC three times, and while at UGA he was won the SEC two times. Since FSU hasn’t won ANYTHING, what has Georgia won?
I’m sure someone will point out that winning the SEC is so much better than winning the ACC, but its every coaches goal every year to win their conference.
by NationWideNole on May 5, 2010 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Whether you like it or not
No one except ACC people take the ACC very seriously.
I mean Tech won it last year after all… in a year where they lost, at home, to the worst Georgia team of the last decade.
No, sorry, you’re not getting too much credit for those bad boys.
by get swoll yunel on May 5, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
So UGA was a better team than GT last year? Does that mean GT was a better team than the 08 UGA team with Stafford and Moreno?
GTFO with that, c’mon man…. (Keyshawn Johnson Tone,lol)
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
I was just pointing out what NMDawg said
I’ll agree that recent evidence has suggested that it is harder win the SEC than it is to win the ACC, but NMDawg posted we haven’t won anything which obliviously isn’t true.
by NationWideNole on May 6, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I am wondering then . . .
If Georgia joined the ACC do you think they would suddenly be this juggernaut and dominant the conference consistently because I for one don’t.
by NationWideNole on May 6, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
We'd have won it last year, that's for sure
In 2009, a mediocre Georgia team beat the eventual ACC champion on the road, and also beat the South Carolina team that beat the other ACC divisional champion.
If the 2002, 2005, and 2007 Georgia teams had been playing in the ACC, they’d have won the conference championship in each of those years, and might well have played for the national title in one or two of those years.
Do I think Georgia would dominate the conference consistently? No, I don’t. Do I think what already is a pretty impressive Georgia record for the 21st century would have been even better against ACC competition instead of SEC competition? Yes, I do.
To what other conclusion could a 12-1 record against ACC opponents in the Mark Richt era lead me? It isn’t as though that ledger was compiled against Duke, N.C. State in the later Chuck Amato years, and John Bunting’s North Carolina squads; the Bulldogs were beating ACC champion Florida State and a quality Virginia Tech club in bowl games, and they were defeating bowl-bound Clemson and Georgia Tech outfits in the regular season.
Go 'Dawgs!
But that same UGA team los at home to Kentucky
was blown out by Tennessee who was blown out by VTech, etc.
I don’t disagree that the SEC is more difficult than the ACC. And I believe the 2007 and 2005 UGA teams would have won the conference. Granted, the 2002 team would not have won an expanded ACC, and since we’re playing hypotheticals, I might be able to do that.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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However many dips the ‘Dawgs have encountered in recent seasons, they never found themselves looking up at Wake Forest on an annual basis.
I know this is kind of a sleight at Wake, of whom I am also a fan, but that is hilarious. When Wake shut them out 38-0 in Tallahassee, well, that was a beautiful moment. The bigger question, do we even need to be worried with criticisms from a mediocre team from a mediocre conference? Sometimes responding gives the criticism more traction than it deserves.
We shouldn’t get into FSU bash mode. FSU is a good program with a longer winning history than Florida. Yes, FSU plays in a weaker conference, and they’re down right now, but it’s not likely they’ll be down forever. The only thing I object to is the idea that they’re a much better football program.
uhhhh...
FSU is a good program with a longer winning history than Florida
really?
FSU didn’t even start admitting men until 1947. UF had logged 24 winning seasons by then.
Let's see...
I’d go with which team has had fewer zero-win seasons in its history.
Unless I’m mistaken, I believe FSU has 2 zero-win seasons in their history, with the latest coming in 1973. Florida has had 3 zero-win season, with the latest coming in 1979, and I’m not counting the 1904 “we want a do-over” season when they went 0-5 against Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, Ga. Tech, and the first-go-round FSU, and during which the old boys from Florida no-name team from apparently no school in particular were outscored 225-0
Take a bow, ’Noles.
First of all, that is a ridiculous measuring stick
Second of all – thanks for not counting the season that we didn’t field a team. Even the college football data warehouse knows that UF didn’t field a varsity football team until 1906.
Third – I assume you ARE counting the 1918 season as a “winless season” when we finished 0-1 because of a little thing called The Great War….
I know. It’s an “official record” so it counts. So don’t forget 2007 – where FSU’s official record is 0-6. That means 3 winless seasons each.
What’s the next criteria?
See what you Dawgs did?!
Now there’s a gator here!
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
What consitutes a real conference?
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
A real conference
is one that draws more than 8,000 fans to its championship game.
The ACC is more tolerable now since it expanded and actually has a championship game…back when FSU dominated and ran the conference table every year, it was absolutely decrepit. FSU basically had a 2 game schedule – Miami at the beginning and UF at the end. The ACC schedule was like playing 8 cupcakes in the middle.
The ACC was incredibly weak. I can't refute that.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
As I understand it
by that logic you probably wouldn’t count conference titles of any school outside of the SEC would you?
Team Gold
Why those two?
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
Well, actually...
… I was counting 1979 (0-10-1), 1946 (0-9), and 1916 (0-5, and well before “The Great War,” especially since Florida fielded a team in 1917). I agree that it is silly to use winless seasons as the sole criteria for determining which program is has the best “historical winning history.” It’s no less silly, though, then only counting the seasons in which a team has finished above .500.
I would use conference titles or national titles in conjunction with an overall win number to determine which team has been more successful throughout history. Unfortunately, none of the Florida schools had any of those prior to 1991. (Sorry, ‘Noles fans, I’m not counting 1-AA conference championships.) Georgia, on the other hand, had 12 conference championships (10 SEC + 2 SIAA), 2 national titles, and 2 Heisman trophy winners by 1991. Not only that, but as of 2009, Georgia is the 11th-winningest football program of all time… and neither FSU nor Florida are in the top 20.
So, to sum it up… suck it, state of Florida.
congrats on your pre 1991 success, I'm sure you enjoy watching those tapes on VHS
>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->
Haha send me a tape because I think that was when we stopped making highlight films.
>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->
Well done.
Nothing like a little self-deprecating humor as an admirable attempt to calm a needlessly acrimonious discussion.
by NCT on May 5, 2010 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions
We were a dropped pass away from a whole different ballgame.
And I’d say that for having a WR at QB we gave y’all a pretty good fight. Nice flowchart though.
>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->
And Georgia was 3 separate missed field goals away...
… from going to the SEC Championship Game and, probably, the National Championship Game in 2007 (instead of LSU). Few people would dispute that Georgia was one of the two best teams in the country at the end of the season, but their brain fart in Knoxville cost them a tie-breaker and a chance to play for the SEC title.
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear war. Nobody other than Georgia fans remember about how close the Bulldogs came in 2007 (or, for that matter, in 2002), and virtually no one other than FSU fans remember how close the 2003 Sugar Bowl was, either. (Personally, I remember how well the ‘Noles played, and how frustrated I was, even though the Dawgs got a convincing-looking score in the end. I’m weird and obsessive about remembering all of these things, though. I remember telling Mrs. VineyardDawg, “This is probably the most frustrated and upset I’ll ever be after a Georgia win.” Boy, was I wrong.)
With that said, you’re right, of course, RollNole5. And, like Kyle, I wish you guys the best of luck in rebuilding your program and beating the hell out of our shared rivals.
by vineyarddawg on May 4, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That was a very strange game and of course, like you said, close is still a loss.
Completely agree with breating the crap out of UF. I have gained a new respect for UGA and their fans today. (At least those on this website)
>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->
a very strange game
As it was my first Sugar Bowl opportunity at a legal drinking age, I planned poorly (or, said better, not at all) and was too far gone from a day in the Vieux Carré to enjoy the game sufficiently.
by NCT on May 5, 2010 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions
yow
my first +1 to a ’Nole. Nicely done.
When the claim was made that one school had a longer “winning history” I used winning seasons, because to me, finishing better than .500 would be a “winning season”
HELL YEAH!!!
Three in the fight is much better than two.
by NCT on May 5, 2010 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions
A few minor things:
First, I’d be interested in seeing the numbers here. Has Florida State really been that much more successful recruiting South Georgia in recent years than it ever was? That is to say…hasn’t Florida State always been successfull recruiting South Georgia? Logically, it makes sense…Tallahassee is much closer to Valdosta, Albany, Moultrie, Tifton, Bainbridge, etc. than Athens is. Judging from the fact that many fans aren’t alumni and simply root for the team in closest proximity to their hometown, it would make sense that a large portion of the population in South Georgia would be fans of Florida State. In this same way, you have many Auburn and Alabama fans coming from Lagrange and Columbus.
Second, is the University of Georgia really in need of a recruiter like Kirby Smart? One of the main points made in the TN article was that Smart came from Bainbridge and was beloved in South Georgia. The last time I checked, Mike Bobo (who isn’t exactly a slouch on the recruiting trail) was one of the most prolific passers in UGA history, and strangely enough, played his high school ball in…wait for it…Thomasville. Can anyone tell me where Thomasville is in relation to Bainbridge? Oh that’s right, they’re separated by one county, and both border Florida.
Last (and continuing with the geography lesson), the University of Georgia is located in the largest state east of the Mississippi River. The immense amount of talent in the state, however, is largely underabsorbed, due to the fact that there are a limited number of FBS roster spots in Georgia with only two schools. Naturally, some of our talented players will have to opt for schools in other states. Florida, however, doesn’t have this problem. With five universities competing in BCS conferences, there are more than enough spots to take talented Florida players. Perhaps the Noles should worry more about why Georgia has players out of Florida like Orson Charles, Aaron Murray, Rantavious Wooten, and Carlton Thomas on our roster than they should about what might give them a better chance in South Georgia.
2008-2011 GA commits to FSU
2008: Jarmon Forston (Columbus), Terrance Parks (Fairburn & Offered by UGA)
2009: Gerald Demps (Valdosta); Greg Reid (Valdosta & Offered by UGA)
2010: Telvin Smith (Lowndes & Offered by UGA), Cameron Eriving (Moultrie), Anthony McCloud (Thomasville), Debrale Smiley (Thomasville)
2011: Terrance Smith (Decatur & Offereed by UGA), Tyler Hunter (Lowndes)
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
Thanks for the response,
but I was more interested in seeing if these numbers are any different than they ever have been. It would make sense to me that Florida State has always pulled a few guys from South Georgia, and the idea that Richt being at Georgia is better for Florida State is a little misplaced.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, doing a pre- and post-Richt analysis would be ideal
but I think it’s enough to know that recruiting in GA has been pretty good to FSU in the recent past. & this shouldn’t be surprising. FSU is 20 minutes (by car) from the southern GA border. I’ll also note that FSU doesn’t completely own N. FL: Alabama recruits very well in the panhandle for the same reason that FSU recruits well in S. GA.
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
I agree with you.
I think Florida State will always pull a few guys from Georgia for the reasons I outlined. It makes sense and (in my opinion) has much more to do with simple geographic proximity than it does with Mark Richt’s recruiting prowess in South Georgia. I mean, just look at hometowns on your list from the last four years…Moultrie, Fairburn, Thomasville, Thomasville, Valdosta, Valdosta, Valdosta, Valdosta. Eight of the ten guys are closer to Tallahassee than Athens, and Columbus is pretty much equidistant.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I think geography is likely a major factor
and I say that as a guy who played his high school football in south Georgia. Tallahassee was closer to my hometown than Athens. My high school coaches went to the coaching clinics at FSU. Especially in the mid-90’s, FSU held about as much sway south of Macon and west of Dublin as any school.
If anything, things may have fallen off for FSU south of the fall line. With the exception of Greg Reid, none of the guys TLHWG lists were as highly recruited as Charlie Ward of TCC or Willie Reid of Warner Robins, for example. A majority of them didn’t even receive offers from Georgia. I think hailtogeorgia’s point is that the guys Georgia is going to north Florida to get over the past 3-5 years have been more highly recruited that the ones FSU has pulled out of south Georgia.
Though, and I think this is the main takeaway from Kyle’s post, the notion that Kirby Smart will get a shot in Athens one day is farfetched. I hate that because I think that he ultimately made the decision which was best both for he and his alma mater. But this is a good reason why bloggers and journalists should stick to what they know. I have no idea what the dynamics surrounding Coach Bowden’s last couple of years was. That’s why I stayed away from the subject.
Let me edit your list a little bit with the info from Rivals back to 2002...
…and remove the non-south GA players, just for the sake of keeping it relevant to the S. GA premise from the original article.
2002:Roger Williams (Warner Robbins) unranked
2003: Chase Goggans (Douglas) 3 stars
2004: None
2005: Matt Dunham (Columbus) 4 stars, Dan Foster (Blakely) 4 stars, Justin Mincey (Folkston & Offered by UGA) 4 stars
2006: Kevin McNeil (Kingsland & Offered by UGA …oddly enough it says he was recruited by Kirby Smart) 4-stars, D’Vontrey Richardson (Leesburg & Offered by UGA) 4 stars
2007: Antwane Greenlee (Columbus & Offered by UGA), Cameron Wade (Cairo) 3 stars
2008: Jarmon Forston (Columbus) 4-star
2009: Gerald Demps (Valdosta) 3-star; Greg Reid (Valdosta & Offered by UGA) 5-star
2010: Telvin Smith (Lowndes & Offered by UGA) 4-star, Cameron Eriving (Moultrie) 3-star, Anthony McCloud (Thomasville) 3-star, Debrale Smiley (Thomasville) 3-star
2011: Tyler Hunter (Lowndes) 3-star (Scout.com)
I’ll leave it up to the experts to analyze how well/bad the recruiting went for those kids in Richt’s tenure, but there’s a larger data set anyway.
Do they give out trophies for recruiting well in South Georgia? If so, FSU can have it.
I’m not discounting the long-term strategic importance of in-state recruiting, but let’s not confuse a means (recruiting) with an end (titles). If Richt won the SEC with a roster composed entirely of out-of-state players, I’m pretty sure his seat would be ice cold.
by aproposdenada on May 4, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Interesting...
…I’m not sure why two fanbases with so much in common would be at each others’ throats. I mean, Gators suck, right?
In the meantime, do you think Jimbo would like to have Orson Charles? or Aaron Murray backing up a fragile Christian Ponder?
If I were a Noles fan, I’d want to see my new, completely unproven HC lead my team to some meaningful wins. I’d want to know what my new DC was cooking up to prevent us from losing shoot-outs at home to Miami and stopping Georgia Tech’s offense. FSU has much bigger worries that how Mark Richt does in Athens.
In the end, I hope they turn it around a get competitive. It does Georgia no good for FSU to continue to suck like they have for the last 10 years because no matter how many 4/5 starts we pluck from their yard, Florida is raking. FSU:UF::Bama:AU. We want FSU and Bama to be good enough to negatively impact Florida and Auburn, resp. That helps us.
Good luck to the Noles and all. But, their team has a ways to go to walk the walk.
not drunk, just overserved
by Gen. Stoopnagle on May 4, 2010 11:45 AM EDT reply actions
my number one issue with this article is the same I have had in similar other CMR articles -
this “CMR in the hot seat” issue. The more I hear CMR is in the hot seat – the more I am thinking green with envy. CMR is not going anywhere for 3 years at least, and that would be if he wanted to leave. CMR has dug roots in Athens, he’s his own man there, and he is winning an awful lot of football games. Sure, an NC in the last 9 years would make things feel a little better – but CMR won 90+ games at a time that Florida had a dynasty type period, and LSU and Alabama were doing very, very well. The competition has never been as fierce in the already toughest conference around.
If any article or posting says “CMR is on the hot seat” – automatically disregard it. He isnt, he’s not, and he isnt going anywhere anytime soon.
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
I think its worth pointing out....
That in the last two years (or what these imaginary Georgia fans that I never have an opportunity to meet call the “Mark Richt Hot Seat Period”):
FSU Signed Players from South GA:
One 5-Star, One 4-Star, Four 3-Stars – Two were Offered By Georgia
Georgia Signed PLayers from North/Central Florida:
Three 4-Stars, Two 3-Stars – One was Offered by FSU
Seems like a pretty fair trade to me (especially considering Richt is only a “good” coach — I mean its not like he has the 5th highest winning percentage out of 120 current Division I coaches or anything).
"Good" Coach
Well I wouldn’t put anything by the FSU fans on that topic anymore to be honest. I put a posting on that article relating Richt to Mack Brown and BB himself….
I received a couple responses in comments to my posting saying Mack Brown is only a “good” coach as well…and that he wins all those games because he is at a University that has tons of resources and any other “good” coach could do what he has done.
Well, if Mack Brown is merely a “good” coach….I will certainly take it and whistle my way home if they consider Richt a “good” coach as well……
John Mackovic disagrees
not drunk, just overserved
by Gen. Stoopnagle on May 4, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The idea
is that there has been a seismic shift in the college football landscape in the last decade and the haves have widened their gap over the have nots. Texas realized this (as they are currently the biggest “have”) and Mack Brown has turned them into a perennial power. Bama is the same as is Ohio State.
The crux of the original article is that we believe UGA could be one of the top haves in the country and yet are not at the moment. Instead resting on the laurels of SEC championships won over a half a decade ago. The point was also to say, that UGA NOT being the best program it can be is in the best interest of FSU for the long-term future.
Team Gold
Just to clarify, do you believe that
Texas, Bama and Ohio State were not perennial powers with huge natural advantages before 2000? Texas and Alabama helped usher in the 85 scholarship limit decades ago because of their ability to squirrel away top players who would have started elsewhere but never saw the field in Austin and Tuscaloosa. There hasn’t been some “seismic shift” in the past decade. Programs rise and fall over time.
I also don’t think that “resting on the laurels” means what you think it means, unless you mean “firing 3/4 of your defensive staff in order to hire 3 guys you’ve never worked with before because you see the need for new blood.”
Though you’ll get no argument from me that FSU is helped out by Georgia averaging “only” 10 wins a season over the past 9 years. It would also be beneficial if Alabama went back to winning 7 games a season. That’s not world-changing stuff. It’s what happens when you watch the game over a period of more than “half a decade.”
However thinking that Kirby Smart has more than a gumdrop’s chance in a meat grinder of being the head coach at the University of Georgia any time soon just shows that one hasn’t done his research.
Texas, Bama and Ohio State were not perennial powers with huge natural advantages before 2000? Texas and Alabama helped usher in the 85 scholarship limit decades ago because of their ability to squirrel away top players who would have started elsewhere but never saw the field in Austin and Tuscaloosa. There hasn’t been some "seismic shift" in the past decade. Programs rise and fall over time.
There has been a big shift in how the programs leverage their resources.
I also don’t think that "resting on the laurels" means what you think it means, unless you mean "firing 3/4 of your defensive staff in order to hire 3 guys you’ve never worked with before because you see the need for new blood."
Only after refusing to do so following the 2008 season…
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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This shift in resource leveraging, please explain it.
Because to me it just sounds like something the HR people say to head off further inquiry. How is Texas’s position now qualitatively different than it was under David McWilliams and John Mackovick? How, pray tell, is ’Bama in a different situation than under Bear Bryant, when they were literally the standard bearer for southern college football?
By the way what again is your explanation for thinking Kirby Smart is in line for the Georgia job? I still don’t get that one.
Man, we could write a dissertation on this subject
The modern game is completely different from that in which The Bear partook. The huge role of money, support staffs, facilities, individual psychology/nutrition plans, etc. has revolutionized the game. One of our writers did a great piece on the role of money in today’s game, and I hope you will read it.
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/2/9/1302407/what-it-takes-to-be-consistently
We discuss this stuff all the time at TN, and we hope any of you guys who want to discuss it with us will come by.
>>---l>
If that were the case then
John Mackovich and David McWilliams would have both been on a Wheaties box rather than being handed a pink slip. Texas high school football has been off the charts for decades, and the Longhorns have gotten their pick of those players for just as long. For my money, there are few out there who have consistently developed great high school players into great college players better than Mack Brown.
I don't think you'd find anyone on TN
That would make the claim that FSU is better than now or has been better than Georgia over the past decade. That’s really, really, really far from being the argument. The point of the article was to show that LeMay to UGA is good for FSU for not only the reasons of a better chance at Marshall and keeping him from Clemson, but because Richt at UGA for the long haul keeps Georgia from achieving its potential.
Honestly, I think a lot of us feel that Richt is tainted by association with Bobby Bowden in terms of structuring and running a program. It was made painfully clear to us that this approach does not work in the modern era. Now, Richt has yet to begin hiring terrible assistants and defending them to no end, but the ideological similarities that exist are striking. There is a reason that the landscape of college football has seen a shift from the Mack Brown/Bobby Bowden coaching network to the Saban coaching tree.
Also, we like to talk a lot about resources at TN. Most of us shudder to think at what UGA could be if led by guys like Kirby Smart or Will Muschamp. Georgia has an excellent recruiting base, great facilities, and a passionate fanbase that will donate to levels unachievable at FSU. Maximization of these resources through support structure and modern scheduling would make Georgia a frightening program. Bowden failed to grasp the modern era, and failed miserably to make use of our resources. Mack Brown benefits from the fact that Texas is the resource Mecca. They have more money than they know what to do with, as well as the pick of the litter in their huge recruiting base. Any amount of sustained poor seasons at Texas should warrant immediate change.
So, maybe we’re still suffering in judgment from our awful decade at the hands of Coach Bowden and his cronies, but I think we just see too much similarity between him and CMR. Now, maybe Richt can grasp the modern era of college football with the principles his mentor instilled in him and become a hybrid of sorts, who knows? I guess we’ll find out.
>>---l>
Speaking of the Saban Coaching Tree
Which branches are experiencing success?
Dantonio? I suppose you could argue that his tenure at Michigan State has been good – especially for State’s standards – but they have yet to seriously challenge for a Big 10 title over his 3 years. They finished 3d in ‘08. (Hey, who did they lose to in their bowl game that year?) You can combine that with the fact that a lot of MSU folks are lamenting not hiring Brian Kelly who did more with Dantonio’s players than Dantonio ever did at Cincy. Overall? 40-34. But, hey, he’s got the Spartans wearing ties, so they got that going for them.
Dooley? His place on the SCT landed him his new gig at Tennessee. Still, he hardly set the world on fire at La Tech during his 3 years. I suppose one could (and I’m willing to admit this for Dantonio as well) argue that he didn’t have time to put his recruiting and “system” to use. Still, 17-20.
One should also point out that Saban doesn’t have time for that sort of BS. He won a title at LSU and at Bama in his 3d year, right? So forgive me if I am still waiting for the facts to live up to the myth where Saban’s proteges are concerned.
not drunk, just overserved
by Gen. Stoopnagle on May 4, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It's performance relative to resources
I know that in the couple weeks between the time Fisher took over, Florida State’s recruiting went from 40th to 6th.
I know that Michigan State is the clear #2 program in a state that is crumbling. Did Kelly benefit from taking over a young, talented roster? I’m not sure. I don’t follow Cinci closely.
How about Will Muschamp? He’s done a very nice job with Texas’ defense.
I think it can be argued that Saban’s system doesn’t work well at small schools, but at the schools with unlimited funds, it works better than that of anyone else because Nick has figured out how to leverage that cash.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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"at the schools with unlimited funds, it works better"
Now that’s a seismic revelation. At big schools it’s also easier to start a sizable Twilight fan club and raise more money for the local animal shelter, by the way. Talk about the caveat that swallows the whole premise.
That's kind of a thin pool of evidence to base a Saban-tree theory on so far
A head coach who’s done an “OK” job at MSU, a head coach who finished strong recruiting at FSU (which, you’d know better than me, but doesn’t FSU typically do that?), another head coach who did the same at Tennessee, and some coaches doing really good jobs at the coordinator levels at Bama and Texas.
Really?
I think Muschamp, Smart, and McElwain are relatively successful. Willis just became the DC at Texas Tech. Tennessee obviously saw some merit to hiring Dooley. Or should I classify Saban under the Belichick coaching tree and then entertain arguments that these guys don’t know what they’re doing?
>>---l>
"Tennessee obviously saw some merit to hiring Dooley."
I wouldn’t necessarily use that as a measuring stick. Tennessee obviously saw some merit in hiring Lane Kiffin, as well. How’d that work out for them?
They had a better season than anyone expected...
And recruited very well. He was/is a sleezy SOB, though.
>>---l>
In his time there it worked out quite well, didn't it?
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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My response to T. Kyle
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/5/4/1457812/dawgsports-response-to
I know it is easy to take shots at Florida State because I took many over the last 40 months.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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It’s really a pointless rebuttal. Richt has been pulling top 10 recruiting classes since he’s been the coach. UGA’s problem hasn’t been talent. Georgia lands a top rated QB and somehow this is a good thing for FSU. Was it a good thing for FSU that a top rated QB and TE from Florida went to UGA?
I think you missed the entire point of the article
The premise is that LeMay affords Richt further job security. We like that because we like Richt at UGA. It doesn’t extend beyond that.
>>---l>
This is hilarious. Richt is beating FSU out for prized recruits and it’s better for the Noles if this keeps happening. Amazing!
Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding
Who has he taken from us? Orson Charles to our Greg Reid, Telvin Smith, etc.? We were no longer recruiting LeMay. Marshall is #1 on our board.
>>---l>
Until Marshall goes somewhere else...
Then there will be some new story as to why this is great for FSU. The recruiting landscape hasn’t changed with Richt. Unless FSU starts winning the battles against UF in the state of Florida, South Georgia is pointless (except to Nole fans living in fantasyland).
It's obvious you've never read TN before if you're calling us homers
That’s fine. I don’t understand why South Georgia is pointless when it provides us with excellent players on a yearly basis. We’ve done well in recruiting since we modernized our coaching staff, even against UF. You’ve done nothing to support your claims that we’re in “fantasyland” for suggesting that UGA not reaching its full potential is good for FSU.
>>---l>
Until someone can prove Georgia is missing out on players consistently for supposedly “not reaching its full potential” I’m not sure what you’ve done to “support” the claim. It’s a hypothetical argument backed by wishful thinking.
How would one "prove" that?
We’re basing it on our experience with the subject, of which we have a lot. Did you witness our last 10 years?
>>---l>
You’re blaming your last ten years on an inability to recruit out of South Georgia? Personally I hope FSU improves b/c it hurts UF. FSU improving will not hurt UGA. The Dawg’s problem in the 90s were b/c of horrendous coaching, not talent.
No
Where are you getting that? Our downfall was because of Bowden’s old boy network that hired assistants based on patronage rather than qualification.
>>---l>
No
If you heard anything Fisher has been talking about, you would know it’s not nearly as easy as firing the old coaches and hiring new ones. The entire system that Bowden ran (and taught Richt) was tremendously out of date. The win/loss record was indicative of a failed system, not bad coaching (which they had plenty of- double whammy).
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
I'm not saying there was no old boy network
I’m saying that if you have a great system in place with accountability at EVERY level, then NONE of this would have ever happened!
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
DK it's not worth the effort
md clearly wants UGA to suffer from Bowden sydrome before he would think about waking up.
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
High marks for belaboring a moot point
With all the blue chippers you’ve pulled out of south Jawga, you’d think you might have done diddly squat shit, which you haven’t. I’ll admit that the off season is brutal but why don’t you ponder the circadian rhythms of possums or something? The only thing you haven’t done against UF is win. Whistle up your own britches until you achieve something tangible.
Always glad for comments from eloquently spoken people such as yourself
Sorry my explanation of an article offended you so.
>>---l>
We always felt this kid was a reach and that florida was more likely to get him than we were.
It has less to do with UGA getting him than uf didn’t.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
Probably not
but the title of the first article was “Why a kid from North Carolina committing to a school from Georgia is a good thing” or something to that extent. In other words, a kid who had removed us from the running a while back choosing your school over Clemson or UF helped us because he didn’t choose those schools. Not to mention the Nick Marshall implications (yes, yes I know, Nick Marshall is going to UGA for your vaunted basketball program and doesn’t even want to play football right?).
It is a good thing that you got LeMay.
Team Gold
Isn't it fair to say that If UGA's problem isn't talent then it's coaching?
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
Makes sense.
We can testify to what bad coaching can do.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
www.pleasedonotfireMarkRichtever.com
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I have no problem with the Dawgs rebuttal or with them stating their POV and defending their own,
what I find hysterical is their claim that any knowledgeable NOLE ever wanted Mark Richt back at FSU when Bowden retired. Laughable, simply laughable.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
The definition of “knowledgeable” is rather flexible, but I’ve met many Nole fans in Florida (since I live here) who wanted Richt.
You can't forget
There are FSU fans still out there that wanted to keep Bowden. We’re a different breed. He’s too much like Bowden in our eyes.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
I am willing to bet I know thousands who didn't/don't ever want him back.
www.pleasedonotfireMarkRichtever.com
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
What, did you take a straw poll?
Is there a test to become a knowledgeable Noles fan? How much of the Creed song catalog must I have committed to memory to pass this exam?
Right off the top of my head, over 3,300 Noles at TN are the knowledgeable ones, and this is just a small percentage of the majority that agree we did not want Richt back, especially after costing us a NC in 2000 when he had Georgia on his mind.
Now, please tell me what straw poll you took that brought you to the conclusion we wanted Richt back? I really do believe you believe we did, which is the laughable part.
As far as Creed is concerned, I bet you are much more “knowledgeable” about their song catalog than I ever care or want to be. But don’t worry, I am not the type of person to go on another teams blog and insult them back, even though I am armed, locked and loaded.
Regardless, we are in agreement on the one main point of the original story, which you all seem to be confusing. You are happy with Mark Richt. You want Mark Richt to remain coach as long he keeps winning at the present rate.
SO DO WE!
Now do us both a favor and somehow, someway, someday, please beat the Gators.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
What I find laughable is the intense conviction a lot of you FSU fans have that our program is doomed to mediocrity under Richt for the foreseeable future because our head coach is a “disciple of Bobby Bowden”. The very same Bobby Bowden who was one of the most successful head coaches in the history of the game and who really didn’t start losing his mojo until he was approaching and into his 80’s (what a surprise). And the very same Richt who has led our program to one of the greatest periods of success we’ve ever had.
Forgive us if we’re not exactly seeing eye to eye with you.
by get swoll yunel on May 5, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
The article was meant to just mock us
and in the process it just made the writer look stupid
UGA may not be winning titles but we are winning at a rate that is Top 10 since Richt came on board along with multiple SEC Titles and wins almost constantly against AU, USC, and Tech. That is NOT BAD by any stretch
Add in that since Richt has left, FSU has blown…coincidence? Probably not…
Jealously is tough pill to swallow
If it was meant to mock you he would have posted it here
The article was written to FSU fans about our recruiting in south Georgia. How exactly is that mocking??? Our goal is simply to return our program back to the top, and Lamay to UGA actually helps us. That’s it!!! You are thinking WAY to highly of your team. The only time FSU fans EVER think about UGA is when we’re rooting for you to take out UF.
Bring back Korey Mangum— a true Nole!
Was it something I said?
I had a busy day at the office today, so I didn’t get the chance to check the blog at lunch like I usually do, so imagine my surprise at the discussion that ensued.
While I disagree with Bud over which of us took this discussion far afield (I think he went off the reservation from his unexceptional point that LeMay’s commitment improved the Seminoles’ shot at Marshall when he started hurling broadsides at Mark Richt’s purported inattention to detail in an allegedly imploding program), I agree that we are respectful colleagues (hence my second paragraph above, prior to quoting, at length and in context, the portion of the posting to which I objected), and I appreciate the impassioned yet civil discussion on all sides (yes, even from the Gator fans!) that has resulted.
Although I am not content with the last couple of years of results, I am pleased that Mark Richt is Georgia’s head coach. While I certainly heard a lot of talk for several years that Coach Richt was Tallahassee-bound as soon as Bobby Bowden retired, I will take the Seminole fans’ word for it that I was hearing from an unrepresentative yet vocal segment of the FSU fan base; I would ask in return that the Florida State faithful not attempt to speak for the Bulldog fan base when asserting that Mark Richt is on the hot seat or that Kirby Smart is the heir apparent.
We will have to agree to disagree over whether the methods that won two SEC championships in the last eight seasons remain relevant in 2010, or whether a complete overhaul of the Bulldogs’ defensive staff and defensive schemes represents a more or less significant paradigm shift than removing the words “in waiting” from Jimbo Fisher’s title, or whether Mark Richt has distinguished himself sufficiently from Bobby Bowden by enforcing meaningful player discipline from the get-go. Inasmuch as we share a trio of rivals (Clemson, Florida, and Georgia Tech), I wish Coach Fisher and his ‘Noles well, to the extent that FSU’s goals are not in conflict with our own.
Go 'Dawgs!
Good point regarding Richt to FSU and Smart to UGA conjecture.
>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->
Thanks, RollNole5
Guys like NaGaNole (below) notwithstanding, I’ve appreciated the impassioned civility y’all have brought to this discussion.
Go 'Dawgs!
I agree, it is nice to have an actual discussion instead of a dissfest.
I’m not sure I saw any of the Gator civility you mentioned, but I’ll take your word on it.
>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->
T Kyle King said it. I'm not sure I've seen it though.
>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->
I think this is fair. I probably did take unnecessary shots at Richt and should have said
“Smart would focus heavily on South Georgia because he knows the area well and this move keeps Richt at Georgia and whatever the chance you believe Smart is the next UGA coach, this get for Richt reduces the chance that Smart will be the head Dawg any time soon.”
I do think UGA is set up quite nicely to have a big year. The trip to Colorado is unnecessary and if I am Richt I would punch my AD for scheduling it. In this era, non-conference games are unnecessary if you play in the SEC. And UGA already has a guaranteed 8win+ OOC game against GT. A trip to Carolina will likely see the Cocks favored by a small amount. UF is likely a small favorite as well. I would say Auburn is as well. But let’s say UGA goes 3-3 @USCe, UF, @Aub, GT, @ MissSt, and Arky (who has the most annoying fans ever, to be sure). I fully expect 6-0 v. ULL, @ COL, Vandy, Tennessee (who could be awful), @ UK, and Idaho State.
9-3 against a good schedule has UGA in a very nice bowl and nothing produces more hope than a young QB showing signs of progression (see Stafford)
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Yeah, that's a fair take on the likely outcome of Georgia's 2010 season . . .
. . . and I say that as the guy who came home from the 2009 G-Day game and said, “”http://www.dawgsports.com/2009/4/11/831305/georgia-diamond-dogs-7-kentucky" >We’re going 7-5!"
Thanks for sparking a good discussion, Bud. I would say we’ll be rooting for y’all when you play the Gators next year, but, really, that goes without saying, doesn’t it? Any group of folks that hates Florida and loves Burt Reynolds can’t be all (or even mostly) bad.
Go 'Dawgs!
One of the few things I hate about our software
The first is easily the inability to edit the “roster” sections at the top of the page.
And as a Phi, I am a big fan or Burt for more than him just being a ’Nole.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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The next time you're in my neck of the woods, Bud . . .
. . . drop by my office, and I’ll show you some of the places where they filmed “Smokey and the Bandit” (or, at least, where those places used to be).
Go 'Dawgs!
Will do
Also, know anyone who is hiring?
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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If I hear anything . . .
. . . I’ll definitely e-mail you.
In all seriousness, if you need some help in that department, e-mail me at the office, and I’ll be glad to help however I can.
Thanks again, Bud.
Go 'Dawgs!
I appreciate that, T Kyle
And I certainly will do so.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Mama always used to say "takes one to know one..."
IMO, the FSU fanbase is uniquely qualified to point out a program that is stagnant, therefore likely to be passed up by other programs. We’ve lived it for the last 10 years.
Recruiting. using the recruiting services and highlight tapes to influence your offers. 3) Too much focus on national recruiting with a rich talent base. What does that have to do with UGA? First, I will say that I think Richt is a good person, a devout religious man. This isn’t to flame, but you have to admit his program is not a reflection of Richt. I’m not naive. I know college kids do stupid things, and the adoration a lot of the kids received in high school because of their gift on the gridiron has clouded their judgment. Even still you have to admit that your program is getting a bad reputation. Why? Reason #1 from above, letting talent overrule the fact the kid is of bad character. Having a guy you think has gotten a bad rap is one thing, but the UGA program is full of them. We both know it, no need to get upset. Reason 2 and 3 you would know better than me, but I’ll give you one example for both in one. Having BJ Butler and Deon Rogers holding spots in your class, while offering a kid like Telvin Smith months after offering them. Trying too hard to pull a kid like Rogers out of S FL when you had an instate kid that was better and probably would be a Bulldog today if UGA had offered earlier. Richt later decided neither Rogers and Butler weren’t of the quality and like a gentleman let them publicly switch when you know better than I do Richt said told both of them thanks but no thanks. Where there is smoke, there is fire…
I keep hearing UGA fans point to their top 10 recruiting classes and poke their chest out. It’s a fact that better athletes equal better teams, but look closer. e.g. FSU’s 06 class was ranked #6. Know how many of those 27 kids made it to become great players or leaders as upperclassmen? 4 (Ponder, Rolle, Watson, and McMahon) What happened you asked? 1) Not checking on kids character, or letting talent overrule better judgment. 2) Lazy evaluations
Asst coaches
Yes, Richt finally replaced CWM, but why did he blindly defend him for so long? It took a 3 touchdown loss to UT for him to lose his job, not unlike the 30-0 loss we had vs WF that forced Bobby Bowden to fire his son Jeff Bowden. It worked out great for us as it brought is Jimbo Fisher. If Todd Grantham works out for you in the same manner, you’ll be quite pleased. It still doesn’t negate the fact of all the lost seasons. How can a coach at a major conference so blindly defend a coach out of loyalty? Where was the loyalty to those kids. IMO, both Curran and Watson were as talented as Sean Weatherspoon. Why was one a first round draft pick, and the other two not? Bad coaching.
Vision
Bobby Bowden had no vision, he was just going through the motions for wins and a paycheck. I don’t think this is problem with Richt, but Richt is so busy trying to keep his job he doesn’t have a plan over time. He only thinks season to season. Why didn’t he start Murray last year? He might not have been the QB Joe Cox was (lol), but he would have earned valuable experience as a starter for this year. Urban Meyer did the same think with his whole defense in 2007. Led them to an 8-5 year, but how’d it work out in ’08? Long term vision is vital if you want to win a MNC.
I know many of you will read this and think “That’s FSU”, and you’d be absolutely right. That WAS FSU. We made a coaching change, and we think we got the right guy. We weren’t just a very good “10 win” program, we were the best in college football for a whole decade We won 2 MNC, 8 conference titles, and averaged 11 wins a season. These are the reason we fell so far. We can see it in your program. If you disagree, then so be it. But I just want you to look at the last 3 years and tell me if you like the trend for UGA : ’07- 2 losses, ’08- 3 losses, ’09- 5 losses, ’10- ??
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
"[L]etting talent overrule the fact the kid is of bad character. Having a guy you think has gotten a bad rap is one thing, but the UGA program is full of them. We both know it, no need to get upset."
For the record, that’s the point at which I stopped reading your comment. You lost all claim to credibility by saying something that is obviously wrong to any knowledgeable person, then compounding your error with snark.
Go 'Dawgs!
Your right to disagree, but...
For the record, that’s the point at which I stopped reading your comment. You lost all claim to credibility by saying something that is obviously wrong to any knowledgeable person, then compounding your error with snark.
is a weak rebuttal. I was very delicate to not make it a post full of flame attempts at UGA. I wanted to get my point across. I don’t blame you for closing your eyes and turning away. Our fanbase did it for years…
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
If the shoe fits . . .
Frankly, NaGaNole, your point was so weak that it wasn’t worth the time to run it down for you again; I would have thought the silliness of your observation in a conversation that began because Christian LeMay, a high-character kid, committed to Georgia would have made no further rebuttal necessary, but, if you insist, read this.
Lose the attitude, NaGaNole (“I don’t blame you for closing your eyes and turning away”). Make your point, if you have one, but spare me your sanctimoniousness.
Go 'Dawgs!
Still not addressing any of the issues I brought up...
Rebuttal by dismissal. Kudos to you, sir. I’m sorry you took this as attitude. I am quite empathetic towards your program.
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
But not the rest....
I must have struck a nerve with the point about kids with bad character, but that’s all he chose to respond to. I made observations, but I’m not a UGA insider. If I am wrong, I wouldn’t mind someone explaining it to me. However, your “point is too weak to respond to” does nothing to refute it and is more like an affirmation….
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
oh, sorry.
I misunderstood your use of the word “any”.
by NCT on May 7, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
For the record
There were also Seminole fans (like me) defending Mark Richt and UGA.
By the way, beat uf!!!
And because I am not sure where else to put this
Coonhound produced this image showing the 100mi radii of the schools in the SEC, FSU, and Clemson
UGA has a lot of schools in a very close area. 
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Great graphic
I wonder how many prized recruits come out of Clayton, GA, or Columbus, MS? Whoever they are, those kids must be getting hammered hard by recruiting coordinators.
kyle - hats off
Most everything here is useless off season ranting – but it has become the biggest off season blog I have ever seen.
I am sure you purposely manipulated it all just for that reason.
And I am sure you know me well enough to know that I dont think so.
good luck Noles……………………….
"One thing I will never do as long as I’m at Georgia is lose to Florida." - Herschel Walker
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