Was the Florida Gators' Recruiting Class Deceived by Urban Meyer?
by T Kyle King on Feb 4, 2010 11:21 PM EST
in Football
247 comments
Let’s not mince words here; ever since I made the mistake of treating this soulless Cardassian cyborg like a functional human being, Urban Meyer has used every means at his disposal to confirm that he is, in fact, a total sleazeball. Yes, I would dislike him just because he was the Florida head coach, but Steve Spurrier was merely obnoxious; Urban Meyer’s a lying scumbag. You know it, I know it, and Matt Hinton knows it. Here, for the record, is the tale of the tape:
On December 9, 2009, Florida defensive coordinator Charlie Strong was hired to be the head coach at Louisville. Less than a month later, in a move many Gator fans considered "a surprise," Coach Meyer hired George Edwards to succeed Coach Strong in Gainesville. SB Nation’s Florida blogger, mlmintampa, noted (in the posting linked to in the preceding sentence): "Having a pro coach might provide an advantage of, ‘Hey kid, I can get you to the pros’."
On January 19, 2010, Chan Gailey was hired as the head coach in Buffalo. SB Nation’s lead Bills blogger, Brian Galliford, offered this assessment the following day:
Clearly, the first thing Gailey needs to do is get his stable of assistants in place. Expect him to concentrate on the defensive side of ball first, as Gailey revealed at his introductory press conference that he would be Buffalo's offensive play-caller in 2010. . . .
Gailey's most important hire will obviously be his defensive coordinator.
While Galliford’s evaluation certainly made sense, Coach Gailey’s immediate moves were on the other side of the ball, and the assistants he chose shared a common characteristic: all of them had worked with Chan Gailey at his previous coaching stops. Less than a week after the new head coach was hired, longtime colleague Curtis Modkins was tapped to be Buffalo’s offensive coordinator, and, by January 27, tight ends coach Bob Bicknell, offensive line coach Joe D’Alessandris, and offensive quality control coach Kevin Patullo had been added. All had prior experience with Coach Gailey.
The Bills’ offensive staff was rounded out on February 1, when hires reported over the weekend were announced officially. George Cortez was introduced as quarterbacks coach and special teams coordinator Bruce DeHaven came on board, as well.
Accordingly, although Galliford’s prediction was imminently sensible, the exact opposite occurred: Chan Gailey needed to make hiring a defensive coordinator his top priority, but, instead, he assembled a complete offensive staff and even hired a special teams coordinator without appointing a chief assistant to run the defense. This left matters very much up in the air, as Coach Gailey’s other defensive hires were without formal position responsibilities or official titles: Giff Smith was brought in as a defensive assistant and Bob Sanders was retained from the previous staff, but their job descriptions were amorphous while the most important staff position remained unfilled.
What made the situation even more odd was the fact that Coach Gailey must have had his man in mind. His other staff hires showed a clear pattern of picking assistants with whom he had worked previously, and Coach Edwards had been given his first NFL job by Coach Gailey more than a decade before. Since the new Buffalo head coach surely had at least an inkling that Coach Edwards was the guy he wanted, why didn’t he do what he did in assembling an offensive staff; viz., hire the coordinator first then fill in the flow chart from there? Nothing prevented him from doing so, since the customary prohibition on poaching coaches involved in playoff runs obviously did not apply.
On February 3, Florida inked the country’s top recruiting class on national signing day despite the turmoil caused by Coach Meyer’s uncertain status since Christmas. Undoubtedly, this was pleasing to Coach Gailey, who quarterbacked the Gators as a collegian and recently helmed a Georgia Tech program that shares with Florida the view that Georgia and Florida State are hated rivals.
Also on national signing day, Jim Donnan stated on Atlanta radio (without naming names) that a big hire was forthcoming that would take a notable coach from a significant program. Coach Donnan indicated that he expected an announcement that day. No such announcement was made on February 3.
On February 4, in apparent confirmation of Coach Donnan’s forecast the previous day, Coach Edwards was hired as the defensive coordinator of the Buffalo Bills after less than a month on Coach Meyer’s staff. The members of the elite Florida recruiting class whose national letters of intent had been signed just the day before evidently knew nothing of the move beforehand.
Now, it’s possible that it could just be a heck of a coincidence and that relentless control freak Urban Meyer was blissfully ignorant that his defensive coordinator was about to bail on him, even though a radio host who’s been out of coaching for a decade---since then-Notre Dame wide receivers coach Urban Meyer was about to start his first head coaching job at Bowling Green---knew it was happening beforehand. Maybe Coach Meyer’s recent health reversals have left him that oblivious to major events inside the program he micromanages obsessively . . . but I don’t believe that, and neither do you.
Are we seriously to believe that Chan Gailey, despite needing most of all to hire a defensive coordinator, saved the most important position for last, even though his hiring pattern made it abundantly clear that he wanted someone with whom he had worked before and he knew full well that George Edwards had the best resume for the job? Are we to believe that Chan Gailey did such a thing in a vacuum, and just happened to hold off until the day after George Edwards’s presence as an NFL guy on Urban Meyer’s staff aided Chan Gailey’s alma mater in landing the cream of the incoming collegiate crop?
Maybe that makes sense to you, but, to me, it seems a good deal more plausible that Chan Gailey knew from the get-go that he wanted George Edwards and that, either at Urban Meyer’s request or with Urban Meyer’s knowing assent, he waited more than two weeks to formalize that relationship so that the Gators could create the illusion of stability in an effort to dupe at least some of their recruits into signing with Florida under false pretenses.
Do I know Urban Meyer did such a thing? I do not; I’m just connecting the dots, but circumstantial evidence is still good evidence, and the math doesn’t seem to add up any other way. Besides, given what we know about Urban Meyer, exaggerator extraordinaire and outright liar, is there anything even a Gator fan---or, for that matter, even the daughter who thought she had her daddy back---would put past this charlatan? Doug Gillett is a friend of mine, but he has Coach Meyer ranked three spots too low.
The irony is that Urban Meyer has been as successful as any coach in the BCS era yet Congress intends to subject the BCS to laws governing deceptive trade practices. This is silly, seeing as how the consumers of college football are so fully aware of the Bowl Championship Series’s inherent flaws that fans consistently refer to the national championship as "mythical," but, if the House of Representatives wants to protect someone from dishonest practices in college football, maybe it ought to start in Gainesville with the 28 young men who are bound by letters of intent that were obtained by a man who ought to be asked, "What did the head coach know and when did he know it?"
Maybe every last one of those kids would have signed with Florida, anyway, but not telling them until the ink is dry is just sleazy, and the fact that he apparently kept the information from them suggests strongly that Coach Meyer wasn’t so sure there wouldn’t have been some defections if he was honest. As it stands, any member of the incoming crop of freshman Gators who thought he was coming to play for George Edwards and wants to go somewhere else because he feels he was misled can go play in Division I-AA or transfer within Division I-A and sit out a year. When outside observers look at such restrictions and shake their heads at the system in place in college football, we should not wonder why they condemn the sport as morally bankrupt. As long as we reward lying sacks of crap like Urban Meyer, the critics are right.
Meanwhile, Mark Richt is drawing criticism from fans for his signing class, yet still he continues to stand up like a man and say things like this:
Recruiting is a lot about relationships. Anytime there is some kind of change on your staff for whatever reason, the relationships that have been built throughout this recruiting process were broken. I think the timing of the hire taking as long as it did, it did put a strain on these young men that we had committed. We know that some guys changed their mind.
So it can be confusing at times. It can be very difficult at times. That’s why our policy has been to be very straightforward from the beginning. Don’t say something that won’t come true in the end. Trust is really the only thing we have to hold us together, I think.
What does it profit a man if he wins two crystal footballs at the cost of his own soul? The reason Old Scratch came up empty in Charlie Daniels’s "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" is that he went one state too far north.
Go ‘Dawgs!
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Is it really that big of a deal?
If these kids stayed through the quasi-resignation don’t you think they would have stayed through this? Edwards was only there a month so they were probably closer to Strong. Defending Urban makes me feel dirty.
Objection: calls for speculation
Even assuming arguendo* that no commit would have defected (which possibility TKK acknowledged), the point remains: withholding that kind of information under these circumstances is both unethical and immoral.
*Dang. Can’t format my text in mobile commenting.
by NCT on Feb 4, 2010 11:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You know, I thought that as well...
…but really, that just makes more sleazy and perplexing. Like you, I doubt many recruits would have bolted even without a DC in place, which means Urban deceived them just on the off chance! It’s one thing to do something underhanded to save a recruiting class, but even worse to do it to possibly save just one or two of them.
The bigger question is...
If Donnan felt as fondly about the Georgia Bulldogs as he’s indicated he does in previous interviews, why didn’t he out this fraud on signing day?
Would it have changed anything? Maybe. Maybe not. But those kids at least deserved to have all the information before making their decisions.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
by RedCrake on Feb 4, 2010 11:47 PM EST via mobile reply actions
That might have been the most inarticulate piece of crap I’ve ever read. That writing was so bad I could only feel sorry for the author. Florida had a great recruiting year, Georgia not as good. Urban Meyer must be a pretty good recruiter, and from what I’ve read a man of great character. Don’t hate the player hate the game.
by tkylekingisanidiot on Feb 5, 2010 12:07 AM EST reply actions
sounds like you are the one hating the player
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to join in the conversation
There’s no need for you to feel sorry for me, though, and, while I believe there is plenty of room for me to be subjected to constructive criticism, I must say I’ve never been accused of being inarticulate.
Don’t shoot the messenger, and, if you would, please change your screen name so that it is neither insulting nor dishonest.
Good luck next fall!
Go 'Dawgs!
That one is actually pretty funny.
Calling T. Kyle King “inarticulate” is kind of like calling Urban Meyer “honest.” Both characterizations are so absurd that they cross into the realm of humor.
Yeah, in other news . . .
Bob Knight is not a strong enough disciplinarian, Mike Leach is too dull to be successful, and Steve Spurrier should really try to play more golf.
By the way, logging on with the screen name “[author I’ve never met] is an idiot” and then criticizing said author for “attacking a total stranger” is the kind of moronic hypocrisy I come to the internet for. And, yes, I just called you a moron even though we’ve never met. As Kyle said, circumstantial evidence.
It isn’t very nice to attacked by a total stranger who knows nothing about you and quite frankly my comment was very out of character for me. I’m okay with changing my screen name and look forward to some unbiased dialogue in the future. As long as it doesn’t take me to long to figure out how to change my screen name
by tkylekingisanidiot on Feb 5, 2010 12:33 AM EST reply actions
Also . . .
. . . if you can’t change your screen name, it’s no big deal. It’ll just become an inside joke. It’s not a problem. Again, welcome. Sorry we got off on the wrong foot.
Go 'Dawgs!
Class^
I know i would have a hard time “thinking the best of someone” after such trolling, but it is no surprise that you are the better man then i.
I do give TKKIAI credit for his attempted mea culpa and willingness to change screen name. I hope he continues to join in more intelligent discussion in the future.
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
I Corinthians 9:24
by Southern Dawg on Feb 5, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Disappointing
I’m a huge fan of this blog as well as an avid Florida Gator. Most of the material on this blog is top-notch, and it’s the first place I go (after yahoo sports) to find out what’s going on in the SEC.
But seriously?
“to me, it seems a good deal more plausible that Chan Gailey knew from the get-go that he wanted George Edwards and that, either at Urban Meyer’s request or with Urban Meyer’s knowing assent, he waited more than two weeks to formalize that relationship so that the Gators could create the illusion of stability in an effort to dupe at least some of their recruits into signing with Florida under false pretenses.”
The levels of speculation here are just astronomical. Anyone anywhere may have a huge number of factors to consider when weighing employment options, and any coach might have any number of personal and/or professional reasons for committing to or backing out of a major new job assignment, whether or not he shares those reasons with anyone else. Coaches are people, too, and very often no one knows what another person is thinking, even when a major career change is imminent— consider, for example, the shock at Meyer’s announcement of a leave of absence from everyone, even those near the top of the UF coaching hierarchy.
I’m not sure the circumstantial evidence surrounding this coaching change merits the accusations you’ve brought forth. This analysis is much less firmly grounded in facts than virtually every other analysis on this blog, and I hope this deviation from your usual quality standards is fleeting.
I appreciate the way in which that was stated, Barry . . .
. . . and I tried to make it clear that I don’t know what happened; I’m just trying to draw logical inferences from known facts. Obviously, others’ interpretation of the data may differ.
Let me ask you, in all candor, though, do you think Urban Meyer didn’t know what was going on in his own program? That seems wholly out of character for a man who clearly is intimately involved in the most minute details of Florida football. This isn’t comparable to Coach Meyer’s resignation situation, for two reasons.
First of all, it concerned a health situation. Medical information is protected by doctor-patient confidentiality and patient privacy laws like HIPAA; Urban Meyer’s the only person who knew who could have divulged that information, except for his wife, who obviously wasn’t talking (and whose knowledge also is protected by a recognized legal privilege). On the other hand, it is customary within the coaching profession for a team that wants to hire a coach from another team to provide advance warning to the desired coach’s current employer. Jim Donnan evidently knew about it in time to say on national signing day that he expected an announcement that day. Is it plausible that Urban Meyer didn’t know before all the letters of intent were signed? That seems wildly improbable.
Secondly, we’re talking about the head coach, who keeps his own counsel, in one situation and an assistant coach, who answers to the head coach, in the other. Urban Meyer alerted his employer once his health issues became relevant to his ability to do his job; surely either George Edwards or Chan Gailey notified Urban Meyer as soon as the new defensive coordinator was in play, and surely that was on national signing day, if not before (and perhaps well before). If anything, both situations show that Urban Meyer can keep a secret until he decides it’s time to let the cat out of the bag.
Do you believe Urban Meyer knew about this possibility before all the recruits had signed their letters of intent? If your answer to the first question is “no,” doesn’t that call into question his ability to lead this program if he can miss a development so large? If your answer to the first question is “yes,” didn’t he have a moral and ethical responsibility to be honest with the young men the Gators were recruiting?
I ask those questions not to be contentious, but because I believe they are relevant and I’m genuinely curious to know what you think. Obviously, I’m biased, and I make no attempt to hide that, so I’m interested in learning how it looks to someone on the other side. (To be fair, Jim Donnan did something similar when he introduced Kevin Ramsay to recruits as Georgia’s defensive coordinator the day before firing him, then defended the action by saying his statement had been true at the time it was made. It isn’t right when my guy does it, either.)
Once again, though, Barry, I very much appreciate the measured tone of your comment and I am grateful for the opportunity to carry on a civil dialogue with you. We take pride in the level of discussion around here and fans of other teams are more than welcome in this forum. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and for sharing them in the manner that you did. Good job.
Go 'Dawgs!
Possibility
First off, I also appreciate the measured tone of your remarks and I’m grateful that our dialog is, as it should be, respectful.
Here’s one theory I believe to be just as plausible as the Urban-Meyer-knew-and-deliberately-misled-everybody theory. Chan Gailey was hired on January 19, two weeks before signing day. Even if he had tapped Edwards immediately, the decision-making and hiring processes would have happened extremely quickly. It’s possible Meyer learned of Edwards’ intent to leave just days before February 3 and didn’t give up trying to dissuade him until the end of signing day; NFL-quality defensive coordinators don’t come along every day, and now Meyer, who wants to be on his leave of absence, has to go on the hiring trail again. If Meyer had announced Edwards’ decision to leave earlier, it would have been a concession that Edwards’ leaving was official, something Meyer may have been trying to prevent until the last minute. And until Meyer regarding Edwards’ decision as official, there was no sense in shaking up a good recruiting day with the news that “our new defensive coordinator might leave, but we’re trying to talk him out of it.”
Of course, all this is speculation. But given the very compact time frame in which all this took place, I think it’s just as likely a notion as any other.
That said, I fully agree that if Meyer did know for sure that Edwards was leaving before signing day— if Meyer had conceded that fact and stopped fighting for him to stay, if it was a done deal— then Meyer should have made an announcement to that effect. I’m just not sure it’s that concrete a matter.
Thank you, BarryMiS
That was a reasonable point argued in a rational manner, and I appreciate your concession regarding any coach’s responsibility to be straight with his recruits at the end.
Much obliged.
Go 'Dawgs!
Say what you will about the nature of the speculation....
But you have to admit there’s an uncanny resemblance:
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
So, let me sum up the responses so far to this posting...
Gator fans: You think Corch Meyers was lying to recruits? Our Corch Meyers? Really, Kyle? Come on… really?
Kyle:
Perhaps T Kyle could have used an editor at large
Perhaps a more truthful less redundant article would have simply stated:
“Gators engage in more sleaziness to be the worst best they can be. Fighting for no class top honors with Kiffy still a priority.”
Run Lindsay Run!
REALLY
If you go and look at rivals.com and go to Florida’s recruiting page you can click on page 2 tab and it shows who each kid was recruited by. Only one recruit was recruited by Edwards and was only on the road recruiting for 1 week. He was only there for 1 month. Your theory of how Chan Gaily choose his coaches if good, but I really doubt the conspiracy theory is real. It sounds like you are reading way to much into this and trying to find anything because you are a Georgia fan and you hate Florida.
Fair point
However, the point isn’t that George Edwards specifically recruited a particular kid, it’s that he was there. I’m sure he made plenty of phone calls, but, even if he never spoke to a single recruit, the other coaches undoubtedly were talking him up to defensive prospects as an NFL guy.
Moreover, in light of recent comings and goings and goings but not really, Coach Edwards’s presence created the illusion of stability for a program that appeared very much in upheaval. The mere existence of a qualified, reliable defensive coordinator on the staff was useful to the Gators’ recruiting efforts. If that wasn’t the case, why is it accepted as conventional wisdom (and stated explicitly by Mark Richt himself) that many prep players being recruited by Georgia went elsewhere due to the uncertainty concerning the Bulldogs’ defensive coordinator search?
I think “conspiracy” is a strong word; I think—-and a reporter for The Buffalo News also thinks—-the deal was in place for a while and an agreement was reached to keep it quiet until after signing day. It’s true that I’m a Georgia fan and that I hate Florida, but I’ve tried to be fair regarding our rivals. I didn’t accuse Derek Dooley of doing anything unseemly to get Da’Rick Rogers because I don’t have any reason to believe he did. I didn’t accuse Auburn of doing anything unseemly to get Jeff Whitaker because I don’t have any reason to believe any skullduggery occurred . . . and I hate Auburn way worse than I hate Florida. (I hate Auburn.)
In short, I wasn’t trying to find anything. I just wasn’t sorry when I found it. That doesn’t mean what I found wasn’t there. As George Clooney said to Julia Roberts in “Ocean’s Eleven,” the fact that I have ulterior motives doesn’t make me wrong. If you disagree, I’ll put the same questions to you that I put to BarryMiS:
Do you believe Urban Meyer knew about this possibility before all the recruits had signed their letters of intent? If your answer to the first question is "no," doesn’t that call into question his ability to lead this program if he can miss a development so large? If your answer to the first question is "yes," didn’t he have a moral and ethical responsibility to be honest with the young men the Gators were recruiting?
Go 'Dawgs!
My answer is Yes
I have to believe that he knew about this, he had to. I do wonder what was said to the recruits only because I know if I was a recruit I would be upset, but then again Edwards defense has never been tested so who knows. What do the Gators do know, do they hire someone else or just keep what they have?
First of all, thanks for the reasonable concession
This discussion has threatened to get overly heated at times (I concede that some of my choice of language in the original posting contributed to that, which I regret), so I appreciate the willingness to acknowledge the other fellow’s valid points.
As for your question, I don’t know what the Gators will do now, given how late in the day it is. Since George Edwards and Chuck Heater were co-defensive coordinators (I have no idea how that works, but plenty of places are doing it, so they must have a way of making it functional), so Coach Heater could simply be named sole defensive coordinator.
Given the present stature of the Florida program, though, I doubt whether the Gators will have any trouble filling that spot on their staff. I just hope they don’t go get Travis Jones once the Super Bowl is over. . . .
Go 'Dawgs!
Why are any Florida fans trying to defend this series of events?
They should just be saying “We got the number one recruiting class! Suck it!”
Why waste words on the fans of a team that can’t hang with you on the field or the recruiting trail?
It would be like me going to a Tech board to defend Mark Richt for taking so long to hire a DC? What the hell do I care what they think?
Will
because, although verbose, what Kyle wrote is logical.
and as we see in politics, the only way to fight logic is with emotion or misdirection.
It’s clear UF’s DC was there just for looks. That’s it. That’s the fact. If he didnt recruit anyone – then, oh, why was he there at all? Again, it’s clear, he was there to make the program look more stable than it was. Period. The positions of morality beyond that are up for debate, but the fact he was there as a stand in groom is not.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
I'm going to have to disagree with your analysis...
based on one thing. Edwards didn’t take the job with Florida simply to be a mannequin…he took the job with the intention of being the defensive coordinator at one of the best possible spots in all of college football. It was a step up for him, in terms of both position and prestige. Chan Gailey wasn’t hired until two weeks ago…a full two weeks after Edwards was hired on at Florida. The dicey part of the situation lies in the ending of the Edwards tenure at UF, not in how it began.
by hailtogeorgia on Feb 5, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
he didnt recruit, he didnt coach anyone, he didnt call plays, he didnt reorganize the program under him
so, he was the DC and didnt do anything. Sounds like a mannequin to me. If he didn’t do anything, why was he there?
Fair points however, and I am done with this one.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
Because its on their blog...
I popped in to the UF SB Nation site out of curiosity to see what they were saying about it and the link is listed as an article at the top of the page. Also, they’re saying that Edwards was only a “co-defensive coordinator” that left. That seems like it would be a good thing to be down to one, but how and why did UF wind up with two defensive coordinators to begin with?
Interesting conversation, but from a Georgia fan persepective...
…shouldn’t we not care about petty things such as whether Urban Meyer is a liar or immoral? Frankly, just beat them on the damn field and I don’t care how bad Urban Meyer is as a person or that he deceives 18 year olds into coming to play for him. Just beat them. I understand that this was written to invite conversation, but as Georgia fans, shouldn’t we be above any commentary that may be perceived as petty towards the giant to the south? We sound like a bunch of Tech fans that are just looking to throw stones at the Florida empire because we can’t compete with them.
http://hobnailboot.wordpress.com/
Isn't it worth discussing.....
If being an immoral liar allows him to develop a distinct talent advantage thus impacting our ability to compete with them?
That said, yeah, we should beat the crap out of them…. then instead of just criticizing, we can laugh, mock, and criticize.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
LOL
First off, the goal is to be an NFL coach.
Nobody offers you a coordinator’s gig so you go to college.
Then a pro team comes calling.
Basically what it is is years of being Florida’s punching bag on field, and off, is taking its toll, and seeing their own recruiting class crumble because of no DC resulted in fans being ticked off.
The obvious reason for the tick off is they are upset with Richt, but in an effort to show solidarity, they project it outward toward the great Satan known as Meyer.
And even that disappointment in Richt is pretty much unfounded; he’s given the Dawgs great years and is a great coach, but it seems Dawgs fans are under the impression that the Dawgs aren’t at a competitive disadvantage against not only the SEC beast (Bama, Florida, LSU) but also the whole nation.
Georgia is really just a mid major posing as a major on account of a good stadium, a great conference and title “won” back when homegrown Jimmy Carter was president.
What?
I’m sorry . . . I couldn’t hear you. I had one of the nation’s most profitable athletic departments, an all-time winning record against Florida, and twelve SEC titles in my ear.
Someday, you’re going to have to try to explain the comical misuse of scare quotes around the word “won.” In the meantime, fans of schools who’ve had a tradition since the early 1990s may not want to deride schools who’ve had a tradition since the early 1890s as glorified mid-majors.
Go 'Dawgs!
This is probably a lost cause, but I'll put the questions to you just the same, boneman:
Do you believe Urban Meyer knew about this possibility before all the recruits had signed their letters of intent? If your answer to the first question is "no," doesn’t that call into question his ability to lead this program if he can miss a development so large? If your answer to the first question is "yes," didn’t he have a moral and ethical responsibility to be honest with the young men the Gators were recruiting?
While we’re at it, given Georgia’s tradition, facilities, recruiting base, finances, and both recent and historic success rate, what, precisely, puts the Bulldogs at “a competitive disadvantage,” other than the fact that Mark Richt is a decent human being who is honest with his recruits?
Go 'Dawgs!
Kyle
Please write and post a tribute to Nick Saban, Les Miles, Derek Dooley, Steve Spurrier, Houston Nutt, Gene Chizik, Bobby Petrino, and Paul Johnson.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
Kyle, out of curiosity,
have you thought about instituting a policy like TeamSpeedKills, where in order for a person to join the blog, they would have to have a 24 hour waiting period before their membership becomes fully active? I realize it inhibits the ability to join a blog and immediately be part of the discourse, but one would think that the people who actually have quality things to say would not be deterred by a simple day’s wait. The people who are simply acting as trolls, however (see theboneman21 and tkylekingisanidiot), would probably not come back. Trolls have no long-term memory and only live for short-term glory by instigating arguments. Just some food for thought.
that would solve the gameday thread issue as well actually
however, it would also keep people from other teams from stopping in on gameday that have something decent to say.
let the trolls drop in and get banned
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
You make a good point, hailtogeorgia
As tankertoad notes, the same point was raised after a Texas fan came over during one of the open comment threads and started hitting on podunkdawg like we were running a singles bar here or something.
It’s a good idea—-the 24-hour wait, that is, not a combination sports blog and on-line singles bar—-but, frankly, I just haven’t gotten around to getting the technical support guys on it. I’ll try to do that, in time for next football season, if not before.
Thanks for the suggestion, though. MaconDawg and I are always open to good ideas on how to preserve and improve the community discussion here. Much obliged.
Go 'Dawgs!
Wait a minute - you mean
it’s not a singles bar???!!! Well Rats! j/k
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
Note -
due to work & other commitments that last few days, I’ve barely kept up with the conversation and have not had any time to provide substantive comments, therefore I have resorted to smart @$$ed ones instead. I promise to resume making thought-filled comments soonish.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
“I’m sorry . . . I couldn’t hear you. I had one of the nation’s most profitable athletic departments, an all-time winning record against Florida, and twelve SEC titles in my ear.
Someday, you’re going to have to try to explain the comical misuse of scare quotes around the word "won." In the meantime, fans of schools who’ve had a tradition since the early 1990s may not want to deride schools who’ve had a tradition since the early 1890s as glorified mid-majors"
That’s great for their history. What have they done in modern times, since the SEC expanded ?
2 SEC titles.
How’s their record vs Florida since the SEC expanded ?
History since 1890 means absolutely squat today without recent results. Recruits don’t care about what happened before they were born.
Georgia is a good, solid program and Richt is one of the best in the biz, but the fact is Georgia, in this modern expanded SEC era, is only the #4 team in the conference behind Florida, LSU and Alabama and arguably #5 if a person wants to include Tennessee.
As for the quotes around the word “won”, well, it’s really not that hard to figure out since the sport is a pageant and Georgia’s last “title” came before they even had the #1 vs #2 pageant in place.
As for this comment > “In the meantime, fans of schools who’ve had a tradition since the early 1990s may not want to deride schools who’ve had a tradition since the early 1890s as glorified mid-majors”
Or what ?
When Georgia actually performs like anything more than the ranking booster they are more often than every few years, the perception will change.
However, they’re going to need more consistent success to big considered one of the big boys of the SEC
Yeah, those 2 SEC titles under Richt . . .
definitely weren’t big boy wins. Look, if you want to say Georgia hasn’t been as successful as Florida over the past 15 years, that’s fine. You can win that argument. But then you could also win it against every other SEC team. And learn how to compose a multi-sentence paragraph for Pete’s sake. That was like trying to read an old school Terrence Moore column.
So the modern expanded SEC era is the last two years?
Oh, wait, you also included Tennessee, who hasn’t sniffed a championship of any kind since ‘98. Are you sure you’re not talking about a post-modern expanded SEC era?
Will
For what it's worth, boneman . . .
. . . since Mark Richt arrived in Athens, Florida has won two SEC titles and Georgia has won two SEC titles.
During that same span, Florida has had four seasons of ten wins or better and Georgia has had six seasons of ten wins or better.
During that same span, Florida has had six seasons of nine wins or better and Georgia has had seven seasons of nine wins or better.
During that same span, Florida has had three seasons of five losses or worse and Georgia has had one season of five losses or worse.
During that same span, Florida has had four seasons of four losses or worse and Georgia has had three seasons of four losses or worse.
Go 'Dawgs!
richt vs florida
2-7. the best stat
Buffalo, that's where it's at baby. - Adam 'Pacman' Jones
by silverstreak3k on Feb 10, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Richt also has a sparkling 1-2 record against Ron Zook.
by Pouncey Triplets on Feb 11, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
you make good points and then step on yourself with a comment like that
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
No, generally people who join an opposing team's blog...
and immediately start leaving comments insulting the opposing team are considered trolls. You’ve yet to prove any different. If you leave comments of quality and explain your points with clarity rather than with derision, then you’ll cease to be a troll. At this point, you’ve done neither.
The record against Florida notwithstanding, your points are virtually baseless. Given that you are so inclined to look at recent history, in the past decade, the teams that you name that have performed better than Georgia are Florida, LSU, Alabama, and Tennessee…if you want to include them (why wouldn’t you?). I’m not so sure you’re right about all of these, so let’s take a quick gander at a few things.
Starting with 2000, Georgia is 3-1 against Alabama, 2-8 against Florida, 3-3 against LSU, and 6-4 against Tennessee. In the SEC, Georgia has two conference titles and one division title, while Alabama has one conference title and one division title, Florida has three conference titles and one division title, LSU has three conference titles and one division title, and Tennessee has only three division titles. Georgia has finished in the top ten six times, in comparison with Alabama’s three, Florida’s four, LSU’s five, and Tennessee’s one. At this point, I think it’s safe to say Tennessee hasn’t been better than Georgia in the last decade…you agree, no?
It would seem that the only real stat where you can prove that Alabama, Florida, or LSU have been better than Georgia is the number of national championships in the past decade. Of course, Alabama has one, while Florida and LSU each have two. However, given that you’ve already stated that the sport is a pageant, let’s look at the situation in which these teams won their titles. Alabama won in an undefeated season, which is more than any other SEC team can say this decade. Florida and LSU, however, won their titles with one loss…or in the case of LSU in 2007, two losses. Meanwhile, Georgia has been in a position to win a title several times, but unfortunately, the breaks have not gone our way. In 2002, Georgia was 11-1 and the SEC Champion, but was relegated to the Sugar Bowl and a #3 final ranking because both Miami and Ohio St. were undefeated. In 2005, Georgia was 10-2 and again the SEC Champion, but again went to the Sugar Bowl because Texas and USC were both undefeated. Finally, in 2007, Georgia was 10-2 once more, but lost the tie-breaker for the East with Tennessee and was sent to the Sugar Bowl and an eventual #2 final ranking. Interestingly enough, Georgia had the same number of losses as National Champion LSU that year.
Frankly, your points as to why the “SEC Beasts” – as you so appropriately called them – are better than Georgia are highly debatable, at best ,and simply wrong, at worst. No one is arguing that Florida hasn’t had Georgia’s number of late, but the fact that you turned a thread pertaining to the unethical behavior of a few coaches into a comparison as to which football team is better is laughable. You say things to get reactions out of others, you bring nothing of value to the table, and the points you make are based almost entirely out of opinion. You are a troll.
by hailtogeorgia on Feb 5, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I believe the accepted internet argot in situations such as these . . .
. . . is “QED, MF’er!”
Go 'Dawgs!
Yes, perhaps that's better.
Or maybe ye olde FTW!
by NCT on Feb 5, 2010 7:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
NCT, if we ever open up a combination sports weblog and on-line singles bar . . .
. . . we’re calling it “Ye Olde FTW.”
Go 'Dawgs!
I may be willing to be
the Facewoman for our A-Team movie, but I refuse to play daisy duke to our Boar’s Nest. =)
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
“While we’re at it, given Georgia’s tradition, facilities, recruiting base, finances, and both recent and historic success rate, what, precisely, puts the Bulldogs at "a competitive disadvantage," other than the fact that Mark Richt is a decent human being who is honest with his recruits?”
Georgia is a pretty good state for talent and Richt is a great coach. It’s just not a “marquee” destination like a Florida, USC, OSU, Alabama etc.
The state of Florida has a deeper talent pool than Georgia does, even splitting it with the “big 3”
The Dawgs have to split with GT, not to mention, Gainesville is fairly close to the border so there’s always the Florida presence.
Plenty of kids (right or wrong is not for me to decide) want attention and the reality is, they get more at Florida than they do at Georgia because Florida, on account of their 90s success, became “the new” while Alabama still represents the “tradition”.
In other words, Florida and Alabama are more high profile than Georgia which results in better recruits thus more success. That is a competitive disadvantage.
The fact that Richt is able to churn out top 10 recruiting classes and contend for the SEC east every few years is a testament to just how good a coach he really is.
“Yeah, those 2 SEC titles under Richt . . .
definitely weren’t big boy wins. Look, if you want to say Georgia hasn’t been as successful as Florida over the past 15 years, that’s fine. You can win that argument. But then you could also win it against every other SEC team. And learn how to compose a multi-sentence paragraph for Pete’s sake. That was like trying to read an old school Terrence Moore column."
Well, for Pete’s sake, if you want to get snarky about it, fine:
Title #1 – year one of transition to Ron Zook era. Nuff said.
Title #2 – year one of the transition from Ron Zook into Urban Meyer’s system.
So their two titles came while the top dog in the east was transitioning into new systems.
That’s not a knock on Richt or the team, it’s just the reality of the situation that Georgia isn’t able to attract the kind of talent that a Florida, Bama or LSU can.
That is nonsense.
Georgia has been essentially the same as Florida throughout Richt’s tenure according to recruiting rankings, which is really all we have to go by here. The idea that the talent level is heavily skewed in favor of LSU, Alabama and Florida is just wrong. First, Georgia has lost one game to Alabama under Richt. They have a winning record against LSU. They simply can’t beat Florida, and contrary to your delusion it has not been due to inferior talent. Georgia was a more talented team in three of the seven meetings Richt has lost thus far.
by Biggus Rickus on Feb 5, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure, except recent memory being the strongest, where the "top dog in the east" is coming from...
During Mark Richt’s Tenure, Georgia has won the East 3 times, Florida has won the East 3 times, and Tennessee has won the East 3 times.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
Also.... during Richt's UGA has won 2 SEC Championships and lost 1. Florida has done the same.
Ours have not resulted in MNC’s once because of early season losses to teams we should have handled and once because there were two BCS undefeated teams that year (something that would have kept Florida out of both of their MNC’s this past decade.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
He shoots . . .
. . . he scores.
Nicely done, RedCrake. Being overly wordy myself (no, really . . . it’s true), I am a great admirer of a point made well and concisely, and this one was.
Go 'Dawgs!
hailtogeorgia – that’s terrific, except I wasn’t insulting Georgia. If you’ll notice I am praising Mark Richt.
Right, because calling Georgia...
a “ranking booster” and a “glorified mid-major” isn’t insulting at all, is it? In the meantime, have you come up with any facts to support your opinions?
by hailtogeorgia on Feb 5, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, that was the point.
Amazing. I’ll go the ignore it and it will go away route from here.
by Biggus Rickus on Feb 5, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
red – Florida has also gone through 3 coaches, one of whom was a horrible misfire.
All we have to go on is the current coaches. Richt and Meyer.
Who is the top dog during that era ?
This is absurd.
You completely throw out Florida’s down years due to a horrible coach so that you can compare the good years. Give me a break.
by hailtogeorgia on Feb 5, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
This comment: So their two titles came while the top dog in the east was transitioning into new systems.
implies that the other than the two years in question, Florida has been dominant.
It hasn’t.
It has been dominant the last 2 years…. I’ll give you that.
I’ve got excuses why we didn’t beat Florida if you’d like them…..
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
I love how . . .
Florida fans like “theboneman” prefer to pretend that the Zook years don’t count as part of the school’s overall body of work. By all means, continue.
Not only do they not have to count the Zook years...
We have to count the Goff/Donnan years.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
hailtogeorgia – any facts to support my opinions ?
No, not really. There are so many pictures of Richt holding the crystal that it shoots my argument down.
I gave you that point...
strangely enough, there were several other assertions you made that you have no evidence to support. Apparently, a national championship is the end-all be-all of your argument. Have a nice day.
by hailtogeorgia on Feb 5, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, hailtogeorgia
I’m not around to post this picture every time Kyle has the temerity to suggest that the motives of Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Bobby Petrino, Steve Spurrier, or Lane Kiffin are not 100% wholesome and completely in the best interest of anyone besides themselves, which apparently is a kind of like taking a big wooden dowel, sticking it into a fire ant bed, and shaking it vigorously.
Please remember that trolls feed on your recognition and attention. If you deny them this recognition, most of the time they will just go away.
“strangely enough, there were several other assertions you made that you have no evidence to support. Apparently, a national championship is the end-all be-all of your argument. Have a nice day.”
Yes, there’s no evidence to support that Meyer has had more success in almost half the time Richt has had.
So, if a shortcoming of talent isn’t the problem, as others have said, then it has to be the coaching, right ?
What else could it be ? Ghosts ?
“hread pertaining to the unethical behavior of a few coaches into a comparison as to which football team is better is laughable. You say things to get reactions out of others, you bring nothing of value to the table, and the points you make are based almost entirely out of opinion. You are a troll.”
What unethical behavior is that ?
I see a blogger writing an opinion piece full of allegations about a team that has essentially owned his favorite team.
Evidence please.
“It has been dominant the last 2 years…. I’ll give you that.
I’ve got excuses why we didn’t beat Florida if you’d like them…..”
I am curious.
Isn't Willie Martinez enough? Or Joe Cox is a terrible QB..... Or Bryan Evans should never have been in the game (although that's really Willie again).
You say we only won our championship due to transition and a horrible coach….
I can say injuries and a horrible DC for the last two years.
My point is you can find clear and even reasonable and true reasons/excuses for why a team loses. It doesn’t matter at the end of the year. I’ll give you Florida’s dominance the last two years without excuses…. just don’t tell me years when we beat you it was “because of” whatever. Its a game that goes both ways and changes nothing.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
check
sorry, wrong thread
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
Rationalization and Justification
are just masturbation of the mind………
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
Mr King
I am appalled at the accusations regarding Coach Meyer’s integrity. He certainly has been a great football coach and leader at UF and much to the dismay of dawg fans.
The concept of your storyline is that Meyer mislead recruits and didnt inform them of the pending departure of Edwards….and that he helped secured our recruiting bonanza. Lets not let TRUTH get in the way of a storyline. Edwards was hired on Jan 8th and in fact was DC for LESS than a month. If you look at the recruiting news in the month of January you will find that UF secured almost ALL of their committments by the first week of January. The only recent committments on signing day were an OL, a WR and a LB who wasnt listed in the ESPN 150. I doubt Edwards made an OL or WR committ and the LB surely not when he had us on top all along.
Asst coaches come and go sometimes. Edwards had NFL experience and it turned out he wasnt the right fit….Im sure once he found out that recruiting for UF is non stop 24/7 365 he decided the NFL was better fit. He didnt respond to cell phone calls from Meyer or others at UF for a day or so before NSD. Meyer only learned of his possible interview just a few days before and was told it wasnt a sure thing.
It happens. But you take the opportunity to illustrate your hatred for the Gators with a quasi-storyline full of holes. Edwards didnt get us the #1 recruiting class…period. I know it chafes your dog collars…but the truth is simple…recruits want to play for titles and winners. Richt will soon be gone and can join Fulmer in a game of checkers. Maybe you folks will find a coach that is a real winner then and make us mad…we miss the rivalry it used to be….heck…UT & UGA & the girls school (fsu) arent fun anymore.
I'll ignore the silliness of the "real winner" comment . . .
. . . and the humorous notion that Urban Meyer will be at Florida longer than Mark Richt will be at Georgia, in order to pose this question:
Can you provide links to substantiate any of the foregoing, please? If I’m in error, I’m interested in learning why. You’ll pardon me if, after your animadversions, I’m unwilling to take your word for it.
Thanks in advance for directing me to the evidence. I’m always interested in correcting inaccuracies, especially my own.
Go 'Dawgs!
here we go again
your post begins ok and had me taking it seriously, and we get to the “fire CMR line” and it negates the whole thing.
I think I like it that every fanbase in the SEC thinks CMR is getting fired. 9 years, 90 wins and counting.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
That's okay...
…we’re appalled that anyone feels like they have a leg to stand on when they defend the creep.
Will
Mark Richt should not be fired. It shouldn’t even be a consideration.
The man can flat out coach and recruit.
To suggest he’s “Phil Fulmer” is ridiculous.
Heck, Phil Fulmer wasn’t a bad coach – he merely got lost in an old school method of going about business in a new world.
Thanks, boneman
Seriously, you can be reasonable when you want to be. I hope we get to see that side of you all the time.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:
Best. Offseason. Ever.
Go 'Dawgs!
Look, I am a Florida fan first, but an SEC homer a close second.
I am not a “must hate Georgia and Tennessee” type of Florida fan. Ok, in 2009 I wanted UT to stumble because of Kiffin, I’ll admit that.
I grew up a “Florida school” guy and FSU ranks right up there with the SEC on my favorites list, so I am a HUGE Mark Richt fan. By extension, that makes me more of a Georgia fan.
I wasn’t trying to disparage Georgia in any way. I was admiring Richt’s ability to recruit and coach because Georgia is at a competitive disadvantage. They have all of the amenities of a major school, no doubt, but they are not a “marquee destination”.
That’s not a slight against the school; it’s an indictment of the “I want to be on tv any and every way possible” generation brought on by reality tv, jack*ss, youtube etc.
The reality is Florida is the “marquee” program in the east, Bama in the west. Those two teams get the most exposure and, as a result, they often get favorable ref calls and gift rankings from voters.
Of course there are kids out there who want to play for the love of the game, but it’s easy to recruit when you can point to huge past success, huge recent success and tv exposure.
It’s no secret that Meyer has been a recruiting demon, with many of the top “experts” referring to them as USC east, in that they have backups and thirs stringers who could start for a lot of programs.
It’s not just about front line talent – it’s the talent down the depth chart that really is what gives Florida and Alabama the advantage.
All good points
Well said.
The part about depth is particularly critical. Depth absolutely had a lot to do with Georgia’s disappointing 2008 season after the injuries hit, and it also helps to explain South Carolina’s annual November swoons.
Go 'Dawgs!
“You say we only won our championship due to transition and a horrible coach….
I can say injuries and a horrible DC for the last two years.
My point is you can find clear and even reasonable and true reasons/excuses for why a team loses. It doesn’t matter at the end of the year. I’ll give you Florida’s dominance the last two years without excuses…. just don’t tell me years when we beat you it was "because of" whatever. Its a game that goes both ways and changes nothing."
Of course change plays a part in the game.
I am not referring to the head to head meetings though; I am referring to the conference titles and the unfortunate fact is they happened during years in which Florida was in a state of flux due to mismatched personnel.
It doesn’t lessen it, it just is what it is.
Besides, I can easily say Florida beat Georgia in spite of an overhyped QB and possibly the most incompetent OC in FBS. Steve Addazio’s incompetence far outweighs the horribleness of WM.
:)
Steve Addazio’s incompetence far outweighs the horribleness of WM.
Now that’s just crazy talk. ;-)
Will
Agreed on Willie Martinez . . . Steve Addazio has been incompetent for one season, not several
The flipside of that, though, is that Florida’s national championships all came in years in which the breaks went their way as far as getting into the national title game (even in 1996). The Gators earned their SEC championships and made the most of their opportunities when they made it into the big game after 1995, but outside factors favored Florida in 1996, 2006, and 2008 when they did not break the Bulldogs’ way in 2002 and in 2007.
Change a few plays—-Ohio State’s game-clinching drive in the 1997 Rose Bowl, the blocked kicks against South Carolina in 2006, Ohio State’s win over Purdue in 2002, any of three missed field goals against Tennessee down the stretch in 2007—-and we could be talking about two national titles for Georgia in the last eight years and no national championships for Florida ever. The margins between goodness and greatness have been that slim.
Go 'Dawgs!
Who cares.....
For the most part, everyone posting on this particular subject ,is an avid Georgia Bulldog fan. Unless you know someone personally, everything you hear is based on speculation. Did Meyer know or didn’t he? Who cares! These kids signed their LOI’s beause they wanted to be a Gator. Edwards was apart of the UF program for less than a month. He made absolutely no difference in any of these kids decision making process. We lost out on Jordan Hicks primarily because Edwards lacked the effort to properly recruit, if anything he coudl’ve done more harm than good. I’m not phased by any of this, based on the fact that I know we will be able to snag another DC, atleast this time the DC we retrieve will has some type of DC experience. I’m not going to bad talk Georgia or Mark Richt because its none of my business and I don’t care. Only FSU fans talk crap i’m not an FSU fan. I have never met any group more rude or immature than the FSU fan base. I’m a UF fan and a SEC fan, and I have no problem with anyone within our conference. Good luck to you guys next year (being genuine).
Thanks, UFCarpeDiem81
I would ask you this question, though:
If George Edwards made absolutely no difference—-and I don’t think anyone can say that unless he’s talked to every kid Florida recruited—-why not tell the recruits up front that he might be leaving? If it doesn’t matter, why not be honest? Put another way, if honesty costs you nothing, why not be honest? Put still another way, why lie for no reason to kids you’re trying to get to trust you, particularly when you don’t have a good history of truthfulness?
Good luck to y’all, as well, to the extent your interests do not conflict with ours.
Go 'Dawgs!
I think it’s almost time for predictions.
In the east, it’s up for grabs, obviously.
It’s easy to look at Florida and Georgia as the front runners.
Georgia has QB concerns whereas Florida has departure concerns and “savior” hangover concerns.
Florida does return an awfully good line, experienced backfield and plenty of starting D experience. However, they lose their two pass rushing threats and their best cover corner. They are improved at the QB position and should be better at WR however. The question is, will the kids be able to handle the pressure ?
The team in the east that I think Georgia and Florida have to be afraid is SC. Sure, UT will be formidable to an extent because Kiffin and Oregeron did recruit well and Dooley closed pretty well. But QB…..
SC though – as mediocre as the Visor’s been at SC, Garcia IS a very good QB and he now enters his third year starting, the kind of continuity Spurrier hasn’t had since Wuerffel, really.
In the end, I don’t think it’s going to matter because Alabama will probably win the SEC again, if not run the table.
Auburn poses a threat, to be sure, but we don’t know if GC is head coaching material yet or not.
And LSU, well, Miles has to prove he can win with his own recruits (not Nick Saban’s) before we can consider them to be a true threat.
Les Miles could end up being Ron Zook light – a guy who can recruit talent but can’t make it work.
Or maybe Larry Coker is a better comparison – a guy who inherited great recruits who were already well coached and won a title because of their experience, but was never able to coach his own talent.
I'll believe Lil' Stevie Garcia is very good QB when I see it....
And, no, his performance against Georgia last year does not count — not because I’m making excuses, but because we made Jonathan Crompton look good
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
I swear I'm being genuine even if this sounds
sarcastic – but did you seriously say that whoever the new QB at Florida is a step up from Tebow? I spent the entire season sick to death of hearing about how Tebow walks on water from nearly everyone associated with college football media – so it’s hard for me to believe that anyone, let alone a gator fan, actually says anyone is a better QB than Tebow? Maybe I misread something – it’s been a long week.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
That would be . . .
this remark:“Title #1 – year one of transition to Ron Zook era. Nuff said. Title #2 – year one of the transition from Ron Zook into Urban Meyer’s system. So their two titles came while the top dog in the east was transitioning into new systems.”
Using that logic we could just as easily say Spurrier’s best years don’t count because they coincided with the Ray Goff era. Also kudos for the use of the phrase “nuff said.” I tend to find people only use this phrase when they have not in fact offered enough justification for their argument.
Kyle..
I don’t know if it’s your best post ever, but I can’t think of a better one.
The stench coming out of Gainesville is palpable, nay, celebrated by the national media.. and people wonder why I have such a fully-formed hatred of all things UF.
“Using that logic we could just as easily say Spurrier’s best years don’t count because they coincided with the Ray Goff era. Also kudos for the use of the phrase "nuff said." I tend to find people only use this phrase when they have not in fact offered enough justification for their argument.”
Goff started before Spurrier, so not applicable. However, if you want to scratch Donnan’s first year, absolutely go ahead because it most certainly is applicable.
Unless the fine folks here think there is no transition involved with no only a coaching change, but a philosophy change as well.
Why is it not applicable?
Ray Goff was a bad coach. Ron Zook was an average coach by Florida standards; he just happens to have been sandwiched between by far the two best coaches in Gator history. Coach Zook suffers by comparison to his contemporaries; Coach Goff was objectively poor.
Wherever we draw the lines, we’re drawing them more or less arbitrarily, probably to suit our purposes. Your line-drawing may be valid, but it’s not any more or less valid than anyone else’s.
Go 'Dawgs!
I would also note . . .
. . . that college programs are always, in some sense, in transition, annually between players and frequently between assistant coaches, who are more important than they typically are given credit for being.
There was considerable staff turnover at Georgia during the Ray Goff and Jim Donnan years, particularly at the defensive coordinator spot. That cannot be overlooked merely because the top spot on the flow chart remained stable.
Go 'Dawgs!
If this is the case Georgia gets a pass on this year....
We are going through several coaching changes and an immense defensive philosophy change.
If Florida wins the SEC this year, would it be fair for me to say that it was only because Georgia was in transition? Of course not.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
“Steve Addazio has been incompetent for one season, not several”
Alas, his incompetence cost them a shot of the glory.
:)
That may well be true . . .
. . . but Willie Martinez’s defense cost Georgia a heck of a lot of games, from 2005 forward.
Go 'Dawgs!
I call charades
That offense could have been co-coordinated by Jesus and the Pope and Florida would still be 13-1.
by MaconDawg on Feb 5, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll just go ahead and
admit my allegiance to Florida right up front. This just screams sour grapes to me. I’m not going to defend Meyer, or say for sure what he did or didn’t know because I know as much as all of you. The fact that UGA all of sudden cares so much about Urban Meyer, and how underhanded he can be seems more like a deflection than anything. You see the same stuff on Tenn boards, and FSU boards. “Meyer is a cheat”, “Meyer is a liar”…without a single shred of proof for any of it. I get it, UGA hates Florida and they have every right to, but stop acting like Meyer is some new breed evil just because he’s successful at a rival. The reality is that UGA was quite possibly the biggest loser on signing day, and is coming off a mediocre year. You guys have every reason to be frustrated, but the envy isn’t attractive on anybody. And before you guys begin the holier than though routine, save it. Congratulations, you have a coach that says the right thing, but apparently can’t coach em up enough to do anything meaningful…
As I acknowledged from the outset . . .
. . . I’m not an impartial observer, but that doesn’t make me wrong. The questions still stand:
Do you believe Urban Meyer knew about this possibility before all the recruits had signed their letters of intent? If your answer to the first question is “no,” doesn’t that call into question his ability to lead this program if he can miss a development so large? If your answer to the first question is “yes,” didn’t he have a moral and ethical responsibility to be honest with the young men the Gators were recruiting?
Once you’ve answered those questions satisfactorily, then you can accuse me of sour grapes. Until then, you’re just trotting out logical fallacies to cover up the fact that you know your coach is a louse.
By the way . . . Mark Richt doesn’t just say the right thing, he does the right thing.
Go 'Dawgs!
there are no logical falacies here
simply observations from the outside. Now that we’ve both clearly stated where our allegiance lies, let’s get down to it. You are in fact the one who is perpetrating the logical fallacy, using false dilemma. You give only two possible scenarios when in reality there are more options. Do I believe Meyer knew prior to signing day that Edwards would be leaving? Yes I do believe he knew. Does this automatically mean he’s a “louse”? Of course it does to you, someone who’s looking for anything negative about Meyer, and probably a little irked about the lackluster performance of your own HBC on NSD. Let me ask you this…what do you think UGA fans would have done if Richt had come out and told his recruits 2 days before signing day that one of his coaches was leaving? If it had cost them some highly touted recruits, I bet they would be screaming about how stupid the move was. Instead UGA lost highly touted recruits, and apparently deception wasn’t even needed. If Meyer knew, did he have a responsibility to tell his recruits who weren’t even recruited by the guy? I don’t know, I’ll leave that sort of determination to blatantly biased bloggers who obviously have an agenda….
If Richt was honest and cost us some recruits, I would rather not have had them anyway.
Integrity applies on all fronts if you have it. Fans that would not hold our program to the same standards as they would accuse others of failing at, are not real fans, they don’t really care about the school itself.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
I'm not advocating
a loss of integrity, but I’m trying to be realistic about SEC football programs. Is Meyer the most honest and upstanding coach out there? I have no idea, but his players seem to love him. He hasn’t racked up recruiting violations ala Lane Kiffin, yet in this piece it’s suggested that he’s worse than Kiffin. There have been numerous “rumors” about Meyer, and almost every single one turns out to be false. This just seems like another attempt to create the fire that will justify all the smoke.
You have no idea? Really?
You have no idea whether Florida signs the top one per cent of the top one per cent, whether Tim Tebow is the greatest player of our era, whether the 2008 SEC championship game was the greatest game in the history of the Southeastern Conference, whether he was staying at Bowling Green instead of going to Utah, whether he was staying at Utah instead of going to Florida, whether he was retiring because of his family and his faith, whether he was going to take a leave of absence . . .?
Whew. I’m winded. I can’t list all the man’s lies in one breath. I think the point’s been made, though.
You know good and well what kind of man your coach is, Cardsfan. You just pretend you don’t because you don’t like the honest answer. You’re not advocating a lack of integrity, you’re just indifferent to it because it wins football games for you and you’re all right with a grown man lying to high school students to get it.
Go 'Dawgs!
You're kidding, right, Cardsfan?
You’re like the guys who spent all of last year saying Urban Meyer was going to Notre Dame, as if he hadn’t faced the choice between Florida and Notre Dame previously and decided to go to Florida. People were presenting as a hypothetical a situation which was, in fact, historical.
Mark Richt fired three coaches and took his time replacing them. He admitted on signing day that the time it took to find the right defensive coordinator cost us recruits. Most of us admire him for that and recognize that losing a few recruits was the price we paid for progress.
Go 'Dawgs!
way to avoid
the fact that you were the one who was using the logical fallacy. Admire away from 5th in the SEC.
My apologies, Cardsfan25
You’re just completely full of crap and there are only so many hours in the day.
“Admire”? That’s a fascinating choice of verb from someone who smooths over Urban Meyer’s obvious deficiencies as a human being because it wins games. I hope you’re proud of yourself.
Go 'Dawgs!
I'm even prouder of
my coach and team. Maybe you should go to grad school at Florida so you can learn what the term logical fallacy means. I’m full of crap because I claim ignorance on the morality of a man I’ve never met, and about situations that I don’t know the facts about? Yeah, that makes sense. The more likely scenario is exactly what I stated initially, which is sour grapes my friend….enjoy your weekend.
For the record . . .
. . . I was typing my comment below (time-stamped 4:54) when Cardsfan25’s comment above (time-stamped 4:53) came through. I posted the 4:54 comment before reading the 4:53 comment. Frankly, since he seems to have come here just to be nasty, I saw no benefit to his continued presence and participation, so I banned him after posting my comment above (time-stamped 4:55).
I’ve tried to be much more lenient about banning in the last several months, and warnings, both public and private, have tended to work. As I hope is apparent from my responses to theboneman21, I place a high priority on reasonable dialogue and I’ll give a guy a little leeway and a little benefit of the doubt. I got off on the wrong foot with theboneman21 and with tkylekingisanidiot, but, given the opportunity to be reasonable, they both took it, so they remain welcome here.
Ironically, Cardsfan25 has been spending a lot of time at our Florida State blog, where he’s conducted himself much more reasonably. While there, he said:
I consider myself a pretty even keel Gator, and actually make it a point to try and be sportsmanlike, and fair. I realize we aren’t all like that ( as any fanbase can say) so I like to throw out the "I’ll leave if need be" warning just to let people know I’m not here to be a dick…
Nothing in Cardsfan25’s contributions here struck me as sportsmanlike or fair, and it seemed as though he was, in fact, as he put it, here to be a dick. Consequently, I believe we entered into the territory covered by his “I’ll leave if need be” statement at our sister blog.
Having been accused of being heavy-handed in banning in the past, and not wishing to be heavy-handed now, though, I throw it open for comment from everyone in the community, including those who have just joined. I have unbanned commenters in the past, based upon sufficiently persuasive cases, and I am prepared to do so again if the community believes I was out of line.
Your thoughts not only are welcome, they are openly solicited.
Go 'Dawgs!
Am I to take silence as assent?
Granted, it’s only been a couple of hours, but the comment thread has remained at least somewhat active, so I’m inclined to take the lack of response as an indication that no one has a problem.
However, I am familiar with the common breakdown of the word “assume,” so I don’t want to presume too much. Was the ban of Cardsfan25 justified? Going once . . . going twice . . . speak now or forever hold your peace!
Go 'Dawgs!
You are more patient than I.
Had it been my call, I probably wouldn’t have given some of them the opportunities you did…but then, I’m just plain mean.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
I don't have a problem with it...
…if you need SOMEONE’S approval. I do find it funny, however, that someone who claims to be so educated from the University of Florida chooses to be so blindly foolhardy and chalk this entire possibility up to sour grapes. What a joke.
by hailtogeorgia on Feb 5, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
oddly
I am more proud of myself than “my coach and team”. I enjoy their sports, but my pride comes from my life, not theirs.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
Since you asked, though:
You wrote:
You are in fact the one who is perpetrating the logical fallacy, using false dilemma. You give only two possible scenarios when in reality there are more options. Do I believe Meyer knew prior to signing day that Edwards would be leaving? Yes I do believe he knew. Does this automatically mean he’s a "louse"? Of course it does to you, someone who’s looking for anything negative about Meyer, and probably a little irked about the lackluster performance of your own HBC on NSD.
Please bear in mind that you’re pulling together separate strands and conflating them, then engaging in the ad hominem fallacy to avoid the problems that arise for your position when you admit (as you did) that Urban Meyer kept information from his recruits.
Let’s say I concede your point that I claimed there were only two options. (I don’t believe I did any such thing, by the way; I think I outlined at least two scenarios, but I don’t think I said those were the only scenarios. If I said such a thing, I was mistaken, and I thank you for the correction.) Let’s say there’s 50 options. Give me one that makes more sense than the one I’ve proposed.
Go 'Dawgs!
Though as a graduate of the school of education...
And the Department of Educational Psychology, I don’t have his or your fancy schooling, but it appears to me that you do in fact understand the meaning of logical fallacy. You also apparently know a jackass when you see one which is really more my area.
When you attack someone’s intelligence because you don’t want to acknowledge the potential legitimacy of their argument, you are in fact a jackass.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
Some pretty interesting grammar in that first sentence.
That’s why I teach science and math. Although my two years as an English major at least left me well enough equipped to recognize my own mistakes.
"We have a lot of passionate fans at Georgia and we look forward to giving them something to be positive about."
-Todd Grantham.
I feel like sometimes
I am skilled enough to go “wow, that was pretty crappy”, but still manage to continue it. )
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
I realize the guy's gone, but
I’d like to respond to the hypothetical. If, mere days before signing day, Richt announced that a coordinator was leaving, I’m pretty sure it would not even occur to me that keeping it a secret would have been an option, let alone a preferable one. I’d lament the timing of the departure (perhaps to the extent of rending garments and the like), but not question at all whether news of such an event should be suppressed to save commitments.
Based on my exposure to UF fans, it does not surprise me at all that hiding information would be considered a viable course if it might benefit the program. Going back to the 1980s when I began participating regularly in the WLOCP, I was struck by how different Gator types are from everyone else in the conference: poor losers, poorer winners, and with deeply disturbing taste in clothing. I guess a bizarre sense of morality should not come as a surprise.
Yes, it’s a broad brush. Yes, there are horrible Georgia fans. But my experience as a whole is that there is a deep cultural divide between UF and the rest of the SEC.
by NCT on Feb 5, 2010 7:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ok, I know I'm late to the party
what with having to work and all but I’m going to say this anyway. I was not frustrated by the performance of CMR on NSD – not even a little as I stated yesterday morning, well before I was aware of the departure at Florida.
That said, I still think that given agreement that Corch Meyer knew or should have known about Edwards leaving and did not make a public announcement, and likely did not tell the recruits does in fact make him a louse.
Further, I’m also damn proud of the fact that our coach is not a louse. I’ll happily provide supporting facts to this assertion.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
Here's the question I would put to all Florida fans upon the "louse" issue:
You have small children. You’re preparing your last will and testament. For some reason (this is a hypothetical, after all), you have no family to name as your children’s guardians in case something happens to you.
You have two choices. If you pass away before your children reach adulthood, your kids can be raised by Mark Richt or they can be raised by Urban Meyer. Whom do you choose?
Anyone who says he’d pick Urban Meyer is a liar or an unfit parent. Period.
Go 'Dawgs!
They’re both head coaches so they are terrible parents to begin with.
You might dislike some of Meyer’s football activities, but the guy is a hardcore Catholic. As much as that religion is……..well, I won’t say what I think about it because that’s a flame war best left dormant. I will say that hardcore catholic parents, whatever you might think of the religion itself, aren’t exactly bad people, by and large.
Do you know both men personally ? Do you know some inside information about Meyer’s personal life that we don’t ? Or, are you simply indicting his character because of a story you made up to rile up Dawgs fans and feigning outrage over what may or may not have happened between Meyer and recruits, when the reality is you could just as easily be upset because Edwards was a former Dawgs coach and perhaps you feel he got the shaft.
Regardless, your statement “Anyone who says he’d pick Urban Meyer is a liar or an unfit parent. Period.” somewhat places YOU in unfit parent territory, on account of the whole unfounded accusations and borderline slander thing.
No, I don't know something you don't know
I know exactly what you know, which is that Urban Meyer let his wife say publicly that there was no chance he’d change his mind the day before he changed his mind, that Urban Meyer changed his mind after his daughter hugged him and said she felt like she had gotten her daddy back, that Mark Richt adopted two Ukrainian orphans, that Mark Richt schedules weekly meals with his players and the coaches’ families that promote a family atmosphere and model family behavior for his players, that Mark Richt’s wife serves as the water girl for the Bulldogs, etc.
You should learn the definition of “slander” before accusing me of bordering on committing it. For the record, I haven’t even approached defaming Urban Meyer.
I am only just replying to this comment because I didn’t see it before now. I spent the morning attending my six-year-old son’s Upward basketball game and spent the rest of my day with my six-year-old son and my two-year-old daughter taking care of my kids while my wife was away for the day. If you call me an unfit parent again, you’ll be banned. Are we clear?
Go 'Dawgs!
“Let’s not mince words here; ever since I made the mistake of treating this soulless Cardassian cyborg like a functional human being, Urban Meyer has used every means at his disposal to confirm that he is, in fact, a total sleazeball. ……… Urban Meyer’s a lying scumbag. "
You have a series of events that don’t look good on the surface. You’re not privy to inside knowledge.
In a public forum (easily accessible since it’s linked from cnnsi.com) you are calling the manager of a business a “lying scumbag”
As I said, borderline slander. You can make the case it’s borderline libelous, however, since a message board serves as something of a town hall, slander works as well.
A chain of events, laid out in a 911 truther fashion, with no affiliation to the program yet you are emphatic in your declaration.
You could also make the case
that posts on dawgsports.com are opinion pieces, or commentary and are not unlike opinion columns written in newspapers. Furthermore I’m sure you would agree that the head football coach at the university of Florida is a public figure. Given that we have opinion pieces regarding a public figure, we can only have slander or libel if the person making the statements knew them to be false or exhibited a reckless disregard for the truth
Nice try, but unless you can prove TKK knew his statements to be false or exhibited a reckless disregard for the truth, you will not prevail.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
Borderline.
Someone from Georgia should know what that means.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
It's not even close
there’s no universe in which Kyle’s comments are even remotely close to borderline slander/libel/defamation. you simply can not have defamation without statements of fact which these comments clearly are not. A case of this nature would never see the inside of a courtroom. Really, your assertion is hyperbole.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
Yeah, MY “assertion” is hyperbole.
Back to the table.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
I was talking to the person I wasn’t talking to in the first place.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t realize you and podunk are the same person.
That’s some freaky mojo you have going on.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
We are not the same person
I know of no such mojo, freaky or otherwise.
Do you have a point, or are you just seeing how big an ass you can make of yourself before being banned?
In case you’re curious, you’re pretty doggone close.
Go 'Dawgs!
Well then perhaps I wasn’t talking to you, hm ??
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps you were not
Inasmuch as that obviously was not clear, you might want to take to heart some of the helpful suggestions you have been offered regarding the use of the “reply” function, which may be used by clicking “reply.”
Also, attempting to articulate a reasoned position with specificity rather than relying upon glib insults and accusations might be a way to go, particularly since you claim to be criticizing me for failing to articulate a reasoned position with specificity rather than relying upon glib insults and accusations. Try leading by example rather than making your fan base look bad worse.
Go 'Dawgs!
Pretty sure I’ve been using the reply button for the past several replies.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you for doing so
If you could work on that whole “making it clear what the heck you’re talking about and to whom you are talking” thing, that would be great, too.
Thanks in advance for your consideration.
Go 'Dawgs!
What?!?!
Borderline.
Someone from Georgia should know what that means.
Once again, boneman, I’m totally not getting your meaning.
Why should someone from Georgia (as opposed to the other 49 states and the District of Columbia) know what the word “borderline” means? Given that I do know what it means (for reasons having nothing to do with my state of origin), what relevance does that word have to our discussion?
Go 'Dawgs!
I did not realize Georgia was an island like Hawaii.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
There's a good reason for that:
Georgia isn’t an island like Hawaii, or like any other island, for that matter, since Georgia isn’t an island.
Is it your contention that a Georgian should know the definition of “borderline” because the state of Georgia has geographic borders? Is it not the case that the same is true of other states, as well?
Is it your contention that the word “borderline” as you used it in reference to defamation means the same thing as the word “border” when applied to state lines?
Go 'Dawgs!
Hawaii shares a border with another state ?
All this time I thought it was off on its own in the Pacific.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Hawaii does not share a border with . . .
. . . another state.
Since I never said it did, why do you ask this irrelevant question?
Go 'Dawgs!
Why do you spew hatred ?
If we’re to believe your online persona, you’re a parent and religious man.
Why the attacks ??
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
I do not spew hatred
Please cite me an instance in which you claim I have done so.
To what attacks do you refer?
Go 'Dawgs!
You’re right, I’m sorry.
Calling someone a lying scumbag is a term of endearment.
But then again, all things considered, the word “hatred” means something totally different down below the MD line.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Aren’t you supposed to be a religious man and a parent ?
What would your kids think of you calling someone a lying scumbag publicly ?
What would your hero, Captain Salvation Mark Richt think ?
Does your hatred for Meyer stem from his faith or is it purely football based ?
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
someone should include this line in their sig
"Dum spiro spero"
by Bravely going forward on Feb 7, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
I am "emphatic in my declaration"?
You did notice the disclaimers regarding actual knowledge and the fact that the headline is interrogative rather than declaratory, didn’t you?
I don’t see anything in the passages you quoted that even borders on defamatory. Calling him a “soulless Cardassian cyborg” was hyperbole in the service of a point, since the existence, vel non, of the soul is a theological point and both Cardassians and cyborgs are fictional characters.
Such terms as “sleazeball,” “scumbag,” and “sack of crap” are value judgments expressing an opinion, and, as such, are neither verifiably true nor false as statements of fact. Obviously, Urban Meyer is neither a ball nor a bag nor a sack nor a container filled with feces, but I no more reasonably expected anyone to take those statements literally than I reasonably expected anyone to believe he was a “Star Trek” alien or Steve Austin (the astronaut, not the wrestler or the Texan).
The only characterization that could even arguably be taken as defamatory is the reference to Urban Meyer as a liar, which is not original to me and which is hardly exceptional, unless you contend that Urban Meyer has never uttered a statement which was not entirely truthful.
Even if Urban Meyer’s status as a public figure did not subject him to a higher standard for defamation (which it clearly does; the case establishing as much was a lawsuit brought by a Southeastern Conference football coach, and that case concerned much more specific and damning accusations than any I have brought here), calling a man whose public statements have been as dubious as Urban Meyer’s have been a “liar” is hardly either libelous or slanderous.
If you believe “[y]ou can make the case it’s borderline libelous,” I challenge you to make that case here.
Go 'Dawgs!
I see it; what of it?
If that, in your estimation, constitutes making a case, may I introduce you to the concepts of “summary judgment” and “frivolous litigation”?
The irony is that your whole presence here is based upon your belief that I have written unfairly with regard to Urban Meyer’s integrity, with regard to football and with regard to his family. The case I made above contained appropriate qualifications, concessions, and questions, yet you find it beyond the pale.
In offering your retort, you have done exactly the same things you accuse me of having done, going so far as to accuse me of tortious wrongdoing and declare me an unfit parent, without ever once offering a shred of evidence to support these baseless contentions and replying with glib obfuscations when challenged.
Does this strike you as defensible on your part?
Go 'Dawgs!
My words don’t have the potential to have an impact on a school’s recruiting thus fortunes.
Yours do.
Have you tried using this outlet for good only ? Like talking about the wonderfully magic Mark Richt’s adoptions, his care for his kids etc etc ?
Is your hatred of Meyer purely football based, or is something more insidious at work ?
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
The archives . . .
. . . are here. I leave it to you to determine for yourself whether I have used this outlet for good.
Is it your position that this weblog is having a measurable effect upon the Florida Gators’ recruiting? Upon what do you base that assertion?
Nothing “insidious” is at work. If you feel otherwise, upon what do you base that belief?
Go 'Dawgs!
“Upon what do you base that assertion”
Settle down, Atticus.
I said POTENTIAL, since it’s linked to a popular sports site.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you
Please note that the question you quoted (“Upon what do you base that assertion?”) followed a previous question (“Is it your position that this weblog is having a measurable effect upon the Florida Gators’ recruiting?”).
What I write will be easier for you to understand if you focus on the punctuation at the end of my sentences to see whether I am asking questions or making statements.
Since you answered the second question by relying upon your use of the word “potential,” I take it that your answer to the first question is in the negative and that your entire point upon this subject was not intended to be taken seriously, and may safely be ignored.
Go 'Dawgs!
Also, while I appreciate the "Atticus" reference . . .
. . . I don’t need settling down. I believe I am conducting myself with admirable calm, patience, and restraint under the circumstances, as a matter of fact.
I make no promises with regard to my future patience, however.
Go 'Dawgs!
Nothing says calm like calling people lying scumbags.
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
I called someone a lying scumbag . . .
. . . 48 hours ago. The word “am,” by contrast, is in the present tense.
Are you having difficulty understanding that distinction?
Are you prepared to assert that Urban Meyer is neither a liar nor a scumbag?
Go 'Dawgs!
Are you prepared to assert that it’s not hatred ?
Or is it only hatred if feminine men are beaten and darker skinned people are dragged by trucks ?
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
You are still
more patient that I.
The ban is so well deserved.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
Thank you, podunkdawg
Needless to say, I feel no need to ask the community if I was too heavy-handed with theboneman21.
Frankly, I gave him more chances than I should have, but he seemed like he was trying to straighten up for a while there, so I tried to work with him and give him the benefit of the doubt.
I apologize to everyone for attempting to engage him. I should not have fed the troll.
Go 'Dawgs!
I certainly need no apologies
I helped feed him. It must be the general desire to make the world a better place by educating those who are so clearly uneducated. Sad part is, words like slander, libel & defamation are so easy to look up online and understand. He was just ridiculous.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
FWIW -
his screen name should have been my first clue to his troll-ness.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
TKK is a recruiter? lol, please dont let that get in his head
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
To further his skills in
emulating his hero of course :)
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
Because it’s fun to just assume “the enemy” lied I can understand why Dawgs fans would take that stance, but there are a couple of points I’d like to make.
1. The hiring/firing would have made ZERO impact whatsoever on recruits. People saying “oh, he could use that as a selling point to get people to think it’s a path to the NFL” give me a freaking break. Half the fan base, upon his hiring, gave a collective “who?”. You think the recruits were pitched that ? I can GUARANTEE you that their biggest concern was Charlie Strong not being there and the biggest counter to that is Dan McCarney who has head coaching experience and just finished helping Strong produce some potential first rounder. McCarney is a more valuable “path to the NFL pitch” than a guy who hadn’t even run a practice for the team. Get some perspective folks.
2. How do you know he didn’t tell the recruits ? Perhaps he told them via txt msg or some other method and didn’t make it PUBLIC because of the media sh*tstorm Gators fans, and enemies, would make it. Meyer believes in celebrating the players, and having news like that hit the wires would overshadow the excitement about the recruiting class.
3. It sounds more like the guy was brought in to consult on “The Tree”. You know, the Parcells tree that Meyer’s pal Belichick is a part of, and who his arch rival Saban is also a part of. The same Saban that Edwards coached under and remained with through originator, Parcells. The same Saban that just got finished treating Meyer’s team like an FCS squad. You’ve got a guy who clearly knows how to coach D linemen. You’ve got a guy who knows hot to coach DBs. Why not bring in a guy to consult and give you the run down on how they do linebackers in the Parcells/Belichick/Saban tree?
You are right about one thing
We don’t know, from any facts or evidence, eactly what the recruits were told, or when. I make what I believe is a reasonable inference that it is possible they were not told given that the information did not leak out to the media in advance of NSD.
However, like Nick Saban managed to keep his QB’s injury under wraps until after the end of the MNCG, it is certainly possible</em that the recruits were told. I just do not believe (and this is just my opinion) that they were told. None of us have all the facts. You have no more support for your argument that they were told than I have for my argument that they were not told.
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
crappy editing -
hit post too soon darn it!
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
To finish my thoughts...
I think we all agree that Meyer knew about Edwards pending departure prior to NSD.
That leaves few scenarios:
1. He knew, and did everything to prevent the departure and it wasn’t a done deal until after NSD.
2. He knew, it was a done deal prior to NSD and he kept it quiet from the public/media but not the recruits.
3. He knew, it was a done deal prior to NSD and he kept it quiet from public/media and the recruits.
Given those scenarios, I draw the following conclusions which are merely my opinion and you may agree or disagree as you like.
Scenario 1 – he wasn’t fully transparent and I think he should have been, but this scenario has some grey to it so I call this mildly louse-y.
Scenario 2 – He was fully transparent with recruits – not louse-y.
Scenario 3 – He was not transparent, he should have been and he’s a louse for not doing what he should have.
I think from what I’ve read the rest of the Dawg fans on here will agree with this assessment.
Now if you will read carefully, there’s a whole lot of if’s up there and different assessments depending on the full facts, which we do not have. I haven’t said he IS a louse, I have said IF he knew and did not tell the recruits, then he is a louse. (remember geometry? if then statements, cause & effect all that stuff?)
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
It’s not applicable because I am talking about first years, a transition.
I am not talking about the entire tenure, just that first year – inheriting someone else’s players and installing a new system not geared to the personnel ie Fun n Gun people playing pro style, then pro style people playing spread.
Just the first year.
Ron Zook was a HORRIBLE coach.
He was progressively worse while sitting in the state of Florida the most talent rich state in the country (Cali and Texas have a case)
My point, though, is that changing coordinators involves a transition to a new system, too
The Bulldogs’ defensive players will experience just as big a change next year as they would have if Mark Richt had been replaced with another coach. Todd Grantham is a different coordinator with a different scheme and difference expectations. Players recruited for Willie Martinez’s system now will be running a 3-4. The fact that the head coach remained the same is immaterial.
As for Ron Zook’s quality, vel non, as a Florida coach, here is how he stacks up against other notable Gator skippers not named Steve Spurrier or Urban Meyer:
Galen Hall: .686
Ray Graves: .686
Ron Zook: .622
Doug Dickey: .573
Charley Pell: .556
Bob Woodruff: .554
Tom Lieb: .436
Josh Cody: .419
Ray Wolf: .359
If Ron Zook was a horrible coach, then Florida has had four coaches in its history of SEC competition who weren’t horrible.
Go 'Dawgs!
Predictions
Well I mention that Richt may be gone soon …based on what I see from dawg fans and their restlessness…not because I wish it upon them. I think Richt is a good coach. But something has gone way wrong at UGA lately….in 2008 you guys were the toast of the preseason with NFL calibre qb/rb/wrs….that didnt work out too well as I recall. Stafford had the best arm in the SEC and it didnt help get any rings or crystal. Coaching somewhere is not should it should be.
Now…on to predictions…I do agree with the premise that USCe will be an improved team and that they will beat you..Bama (dont laugh…thats a money in the bank bet) & UT at home in 2010…fortunately we play them in the Swamp. Our predicted demise in 2010 because Tebow is gone is falsehood…John Brantley is going to be a jr and he also was named Gatorade National Player of the Year in high school and was Parade AA. Im not saying we run the table or any such nonsense…Im sure we lose at least one maybe two games in 2010.
Dont count Bama in the SECCG just yet…they lose 9 starters off their defense and thats a tough loss….I know because UF had to replace 9 starters on defense in 2007 the last time in a while you guys beat us…we had a Heisman winning qb that year and we had a great offense…but had to outscore a lot of folks. Bama will lose to USCe on the road, we play them in Tuscaloosa in late Sept I think…and it wil be a tough game for us. I think AU will surprise folks and Arkie will have a great passing game and with any better defense they could be hard to beat.
I think Ut will falter as they have new qb/coach/OL/key defensive losses…UK will be improved on offense. Vandy will be Vandy.
1. There is absolutely no way on this planet Florida beats Bama this year. Not with Addazio there. heck, they wouldn’t win if Mullen was still there.
2. Bama will be tough again. It took Saban one year to get to 12-0 and 2 years to run the table. He’s been stock piling top tier classes since he got to Bama and there’s no reason to suggest they’ll not be there again. They return a freakish backfield with an experienced QB (who led them to a title in his first year no less). They’ll just run people to death, JJ them here and there while their defense matures.
A win over Florida will give them all the experience they need.
As for Florida in 2007, that was a deception – Greg Mattison is a terrible DC. He played too much zone and they got picked apart. The best athletes in the country with speed to burn and he has them playing on their heels. You get to practice against some of the best offensive players in the country and you are teaching them to overthink it instead of turning them loose; the mistakes were going to happen regardless, but they might have gotten some big plays.
Florida could have easily run through the SEC unbeaten that year, one loss at most, if Mattison had a clue about anything.
I have to say, boneman . . .
. . . those last two paragraphs sounded really familiar. Replace “Florida” with “Georgia” and “Greg Mattison” with “Willie Martinez,” and you’ve got accurate statements about two different years, at least.
Go 'Dawgs!
Joe Cox was also
a Parade All-American, the Old Spice National High School Player of the Year, and Gatorade North Carolina Player of the Year. No, I’m not joking.
“Do you believe Urban Meyer knew about this possibility before all the recruits had signed their letters of intent? If your answer to the first question is "no," doesn’t that call into question his ability to lead this program if he can miss a development so large? If your answer to the first question is "yes," didn’t he have a moral and ethical responsibility to be honest with the young men the Gators were recruiting?
Once you’ve answered those questions satisfactorily, then you can accuse me of sour grapes. Until then, you’re just trotting out logical fallacies to cover up the fact that you know your coach is a louse."
The thing is, Meyer was on a half*ssed leave of absence.
He had (he thought) his DC in place.
He stayed off the recruiting trail and let others do the visits (which is odd for him).
If it was another year, sure, I’d think something was afoot.
Given how weird this offseason was and Meyer’s lack of travel during recruiting season, I have to chalk this one up to something that fell through the cracks of a very weird offseason in which he had to delegate a lot of duties.
Well, that and the incompetence of Steve Addazio.
That being said, I am sure Meyer has some shady secret somewhere – he has an odd amount of trust in someone as incompetent as Addazio which makes me think he has some sort of dirt on Meyer.
Admittedly, Addazio is a great recruiter and a great line coach. But a competent play caller he is not.
Your writing style.
Is driving me.
nuts.
There is a Georgia fan.
That does the same thing.
And he drives me nuts too.
I was ignoring it, then
Kyle started responding.
So I thought maybe I should pay more attention.
Now I am not.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
short trip?
(could not resist the smart @$$ remark TT.)
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
Coaching styles
As a general rule, I hate coaches that somehow conflate being a bully to being a disciplinarian. I hate those coaches that give college sports a bad name, that they are just using these kids to win, and the coach will destroy anything that gets in their path of winning. I hate the Bobby Knights of the world.
College football is worse for having guys like Meyer and Saban be so successful. They are very good coaches and obviously great at what they do. They also present the image that in order to win, one must be a jackass, and driven to win to an almost unhealthy degree.
Ultimately, coaches are judged on their wins and losses, but I do respect Richt for trying to run a clean program in the increasingly cloudy waters of SEC recruiting. As an LSU fan, I may have my problems with the Miles regime, but integrity is not one of them. There’s a reason the Sabans and Meyers only last for a short, yet brilliant term while “nice guys” like Joe Pa or even Mack Brown seemingly coach forever. The world would be a better place if LSU and Georgia were in Atlanta next year. Self-serving analysis? Sure. But I don’t feel dirty at the end of the season, and that’s something.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
http://www.andthevalleyshook.com
I, for one, would be completely fine...
with LSU and Georgia meeting each other in Atlanta next year. I’ve always enjoyed the LSU/Georgia rivalry. It’s very good-hearted and polite. Geographically speaking, our schools aren’t close enough to have a border war or have to put up with the opposing school’s ribbing from a large number of co-workers, etc. Our schools don’t face each other often enough to incite true dislike between our fanbases, so when we play, I’ve almost always found it enjoyable. It’s kind of like the first cousin who you’re only able to see once every four or five years, barring a chance meetup in Atlanta. Additionally, we’re 3-3 against each other in the past six meetings…both schools having won a game at home, a game on the road, and a game in Atlanta. Here’s to hoping we meet again this December.
by hailtogeorgia on Feb 5, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Also . . .
. . . as recently as the offseason prior to the 2006 campaign, it appeared likely that Georgia and LSU would meet regularly in the Dome. The subsequent re-emergence of Alabama and Florida as powers has changed that dynamic, but it is worth noting—-for fans of Alabama and LSU, and of Florida and Georgia, alike—-that it’s the same distance from the outhouse to the mansion as it was from the mansion to the outhouse, and vice versa.
Neither Georgia nor LSU was as good as we thought after the 2007 season, but neither Georgia nor LSU is as bad as we think today. It’d be nice to see both programs prove that next autumn.
Poseur, if it comes to pass, give me a call and I’ll buy you a drink in Atlanta next December.
Go 'Dawgs!
Much appreciated
I reserve the right to Tiger Bait. It’s our way of being polite. Don’t worry, I’ll buy several rounds to make up for it.
I do think you bring up the good point of how narrow the line is from the “outhouse” to the penthouse. Only one team can win the title each year. It’s hard to truly complain about going to a New Years Day bowl. If that’s the outhouse, what’s failure?
I just hate how right now its being portrayed that in order to win, one must have no other values but winning. That’s a bad message, and Meyer and Saban would still be great coaches if they didn’t so much energy being unpleasant. I don’t want to be overrun by these caoches who can be brilliant for five years but then have to quite because they are burnt out and all their bridges are burned.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
http://www.andthevalleyshook.com
also, the only thing that matters is NCs. There are a lot of good teams with good years that haven't even been close to a NC.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
UGA does a deligent search for a solid DC - and we are a failure in all categories
UF has a revolving door in the last month at DC – and they are doing great.
I see said the blind man.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
Also . . .
. . . Mark Richt is a loser because he was forthright with recruits, behaved responsibly and professionally both in recruiting and in hiring, and acknowledged honestly that the manner in which he conducted the search for a defensive coordinator cost the Bulldogs some recruits.
Meanwhile, Urban Meyer is a winner because he made a quick hire that backfired, almost certainly kept his recruits from learning of a major coaching staff change until they had signed their binding letters of intent, and did so during a period of repeated waffling over his job status in which he made inconsistent statements to his employer, his colleagues, and his family.
I don’t just want Georgia to beat Florida because the Bulldogs are my team and the Gators are a rival. I want Georgia to beat Florida because I want to be able to affirm to my children that righteousness triumphs over callous mendacity.
Go 'Dawgs!
" My point, though, is that changing coordinators involves a transition to a new system, too
The Bulldogs’ defensive players will experience just as big a change next year as they would have if Mark Richt had been replaced with another coach. Todd Grantham is a different coordinator with a different scheme and difference expectations. Players recruited for Willie Martinez’s system now will be running a 3-4. The fact that the head coach remained the same is immaterial.
As for Ron Zook’s quality, vel non, as a Florida coach, here is how he stacks up against other notable Gator skippers not named Steve Spurrier or Urban Meyer:
Galen Hall: .686
Ray Graves: .686
Ron Zook: .622
Doug Dickey: .573
Charley Pell: .556
Bob Woodruff: .554
Tom Lieb: .436
Josh Cody: .419
Ray Wolf: .359
If Ron Zook was a horrible coach, then Florida has had four coaches in its history of SEC competition who weren’t horrible."
Going to a 3-4 is a legitimate “off year doesn’t count” type of mulligan. If it was simply a change in coords, it would have to depend on if it’s a philo change or not.
Going from a 4-3 to a 3-4 is a huge change.
Going from a blitz predicated attack to a zone or vice versa is somewhat huge, but not as siginificant.
Ultimately it comes down to preparation and timing – you can have someone who favors an aggressive style but if he can’t call a game, it’s irrelevant.
This year Florida loses Charlie Strong, arguably the best in the game, but they will remain an attacking team so if they lose, no excuses, as the system and philosophy remain intact.
As for Zook’s winning percentage, we have to look at it from the perspective it is -
Zook came in after Spurrier established them as a national power and the SEC was already rounding into the best conference in the land.
The other folks played before Spurrier had transformed them into into a power, in the top conference with a tv deal.
Zook walked into the ultimate job and shat the bed.
From Spurrier forward, Florida should regularly be a national title threat. During Zook, they were a barely competent SEC team.
Fair enough
I believe we have reached consensus upon the point that coaching changes that involve a change of scheme, be they head coaching changes or coordinator changes, represent significant shifts, but coaching changes that do not involve schematic shifts (e.g., Mark Richt turning over the play-calling to Mike Bobo or Willie Martinez taking over for Brian VanGorder) do not require meaningful transition time. I can live with that.
You’re right that Ron Zook took over a program in great shape, but Florida was always a sleeping giant, even in the days before Steve Spurrier. While the resources the SEC acquired in the 1990s bolstered the Gator program, it had similar positive effects on the rest of the league, so it’s all relative: Doug Dickey wasn’t able to win at Florida in the 1970s when the rest of the SEC was hampered by the strictures of the ‘70s, too; Charley Pell wasn’t able to win at Florida in the 1980s when the rest of the SEC was hampered by the strictures of the ‘80s, as well. Ron Zook was as mediocre as most of his predecessors, but he wasn’t worse than they were, relative to the different worlds in which each of them competed.
Go 'Dawgs!
Just joining in. . . . .
Haven’t read ALL the preceding posts but I can’t believe there is not a person out there who did not find the timing of the Edwards hire suspect. How suspect would depend on whether you are of the blue/orange persuasion or the “any other color” persuasion, but suspect nonetheless. If anything the invictive that should be directed Kyle’s way is to call him Captain Obvious.
Unfortunately 18 year old boys are not rational beings for the most part and really don’t care about anything other than who is winning now. That is not us. It will be us and we can all pat ourselves on the back this time next year.
As a graduate of the UGA I have a vested interest in my football program being run with integrity. Unlike the plethora of fair weather gator fans I see sporting decals and gear 400 miles from Gainesville, I cannot get my razor, scrape off that decal and go buy an new wardrobe at Sports Authority next year when the house of cards collapses on Gator Nation and I decide to be a ’Bama fan.
I am happy every day that Mark Richt is my coach and T. Kyle King is our narrator.
Thanks, hbtd . . .
. . . although, to be precise, I am a member of the State Bar of Georgia, so, technically, that should be Colonel Obvious.
Go 'Dawgs!
Well, historically . . .
. . . lawyers were entitled to be commissioned as colonels in the state militia or some such thing, but I think that’s pretty much an honorary thing these days.
Go 'Dawgs!
So that makes you
Colonel King? Wow!!! A Colonel and a King at the same time!!! That’s tremendous!!!
Just having a little fun TKK!!
“You’re right that Ron Zook took over a program in great shape, but Florida was always a sleeping giant, even in the days before Steve Spurrier. While the resources the SEC acquired in the 1990s bolstered the Gator program, it had similar positive effects on the rest of the league, so it’s all relative: Doug Dickey wasn’t able to win at Florida in the 1970s when the rest of the SEC was hampered by the strictures of the ‘70s, too; Charley Pell wasn’t able to win at Florida in the 1980s when the rest of the SEC was hampered by the strictures of the ‘80s, as well. Ron Zook was as mediocre as most of his predecessors, but he wasn’t worse than they were, relative to the different worlds in which each of them competed.”
I will never be able to agree on Zook.
There is another factor at play. Florida really wasn’t a football state until the 80s when the Canes started to make it happen and the Noles were a powerhouse year in and out. Florida was always #3 in the state.
Spurrier legitimized them, but they really didn’t become completely legit until they beat FSU in the SB (even that is questionable as many questioned whether Florida deserved to be there.
Regardless, as of the mid 90s, Florida became not only a legitimate SEC power, but they were no longer to be viewed as the baby brother of the Florida schools.
Previous incarnations of Florida had been good because they were always able to secure reasonably decent athletes, but they were, pre Spurrier, something like what USF is now (of course USF is only a decade old, but they are viewed now as the “little brother” of the Florida schools.
The coaches who preceded over a program that built itself enough to the point that it remained steady, but Spurrier changed everything.
It went from hoping to contend for an SEC title, to the season being a disappointment if Florida only won 10 games.
That’s the legacy Zook inherited. When his first season was mediocre, he got a Mulligan on account of the system change.
But when his teams got progressively worse ie he ran out of Spurrier coached players to keep him afloat, well, the jury was in.
Zook had greater resources and greater talent at his disposal and he sat on the most talent rich state – something the pre Spurrier crowd did not have – and his teams got worse.
Now, the problem is, Meyer probably won’t even be there for another decade. Whoever follows him, I pity. It’s going to have to be a young, innovative coach.
I'll grant you that Ron Zook did less with more . . .
. . . but you’re underselling the Gators history, and I say that as someone who consistently reminds the Florida faithful how little history they have. (Heck, I remember almost every significant event in Florida football history, because virtually all of it happened after I started high school!)
Florida State was an all-female institution until after World War II, and, other than a brief period of relevance in the mid-1960s, didn’t amount to anything on the gridiron until Bobby Bowden arrived. Miami (Florida) didn’t have half the tradition of Miami (Ohio) until Lou Saban took over in Coral Gables in the 1970s.
Their protestations about 1980 to the contrary, the Seminoles didn’t truly arrive on the national scene until the late 1980s, when they began their run of consecutive top-five finishes. By that time, the Gators already had been declared the national champions by The Sporting News while on probation in 1984 and earned the school’s first No. 1 ranking in 1985 (before being skunked by the Bulldogs in Jacksonville, but I digress). Arguably, the ‘Canes put Sunshine State football on the national map with their national championship run in 1983 . . . but Miami’s 11-1 season featured a 28-3 loss to the Gators in the opener.
I’m sorry, I’m not buying it. Because of Florida State’s all-female tradition and Miami’s private school status, the University of Florida historically has been as dominant in Sunshine State politics as the University of Georgia has been in Peach State politics. I don’t believe the Gators were viewed as the “baby” of the state’s schools, but, if they were, that lasted only from 1987 (when Miami finished No. 1 and Florida State finished No. 2) to 1991 (when “The Year of the Gator” finally arrived and Florida sunk former No. 1 Florida State 14-9 in the season ender), and, given the political power yielded by the state’s flagship university, any lagging behind was Florida’s own fault.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on Feb 5, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
When noting the most memorable event in Florida history before 1990...
… one must strongly consider the Florida Flop. (Orange floppy action at the 0:37 mark. Also note, at the 1:04 mark, that Florida could have apparently adopted the “Soggy Bottom Boys” moniker after this game.)
That’s how little real history the Gators have.
by vineyarddawg on Feb 5, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
for the love of god, someone teach boneman to use the "reply" button
if you’re going to spend so much time trolling around here, at least try learning how to respond to individual comments. it sucks having to see all those blocks of text in a row, on top of it all being nonsense. god i hope you cross the line and get banned, because this trash really screws up a good discussion thread.
"Dum spiro spero"
by Bravely going forward on Feb 5, 2010 11:25 PM EST reply actions
Not to
mention
the
proper use
of
the
enter key.
It makes
my
eyes tired
and my
brain
hurt.
by vineyarddawg on Feb 6, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting. stuff bravely
I am discussing the topic at hand. I have some unpopular opinions, sure, but I do not believe there to be a rule that states you must agree with all things Dawgs and Kyle.
Meanwhile you come in and do nothing but flame and bait, and the closest you have come to being on topic was to flame someone about how they’re replying, and YOU have the temerity to call someone else a troll ?
no, actually you left posts scattered all over making it impossible without work to figure out who you were refering too, and you wrote one sentence lines over and over that were very difficult to read.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
all i’m sayin…
"Dum spiro spero"
by Bravely going forward on Feb 6, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
i think “troll” is somewhat of a loose term, but i’m pretty sure it would be ridiculous for anyone to troll on their own team’s blog. i may be wrong, but i think it has more to do with showing up on another team’s blog and posting “inflammatory” (i.e., antagonistic) points of view in such a way that irritates regular visitors. let me make one thing clear: i come here to read and discuss uga sports with other dawgs fans. i could care less what “trolls” have to say, but it does frustrate me when one shows up just long enough to litter a decent thread with a thousand walls of text that make my head hurt and detract from the discussion already going on.
"Dum spiro spero"
by Bravely going forward on Feb 6, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt I will ever understand
why anyone would go to their rival fans blog/message board etc and make statements of an inflammatory, antagonistic or obnoxious nature. Why bother arguing with strangers in the first place, and strangers who so obviously have a different point of view in the second place? For that matter why bother arguing at all? You think your coach is above board in all his dealings, we don’t. DUH we are rivals right? As if we could be convinced to agree with your point of view? Next to impossible. And yet, they keep coming and coming and coming…..
"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain
You're right, boneman
There certainly is not a rule that states that commenters here must agree with me or with “all things Dawgs.” There are, in fact, a number of regular commenters here who are fans of rival schools, and we try to maintain an open forum, to the point that a guy who chose “tkylekingisanidiot” as his screen name got a polite warning and a second chance, and to the point that a ban was followed by an explanation and an open solicitation for feedback on whether the ban had been too harsh.
I hope you noted that I have never characterized you as a troll, I have tried to reply to your comments in the spirit in which each such comment appeared to have been intended, and I have never issued any warnings until you started questioning my quality as a father, which, as you might expect, is something I take very seriously.
(By the way, with respect to the “devout” nature of the coaches in question, please note that Mark Richt delayed his family’s departure for Athens so they could say a proper farewell to their church in Tallahassee, Mark Richt and his wife adopted two Ukrainian orphans through their church, Mark Richt has led his players on mission trips to Honduras, Urban Meyer has admitted to text-messaging recruits during religious services, and Urban Meyer stated when “retiring” that he was choosing his faith and his family over football . . . only to recant that position almost immediately. Which man appears more devout to you? I don’t doubt that Urban Meyer is a Christian, but I question whether he is a good one.)
All that said, I believe the other commenters have offered constructive criticisms of the manner in which you have presented some of your responses. You can take those constructive criticisms or leave them, but there’s nothing unreasonable about suggesting that you use the “reply” and “blockquote” features to promote clarity and facilitate discussion. Your consideration of those suggestions, while not obligatory, would be appreciated.
Go 'Dawgs!
Cliff notes, anyone?
I’m just going to assume that it goes something like this:
Gator fans: No way Urban lied. He’s a man of great character.
Dawg fans: ……….. speechless
Right because it’s not “his asst took a higher paying gig in the big leagues – MEYER LIED” from Dawgs fans.
Is that what you got out of the above posting?
If so, I did a very poor job of making my point.
I thought I walked the reader through a sequence of events, with links to document every fact cited, and drew reasonable inferences from the known facts while acknowledging the existence of alternative possibilities and conceding that I could not know for certain that my interpretation was correct.
Maybe that was just me, though.
Go 'Dawgs!
Does anyone even realize that Urban Meyer’s ability to attract recruits come from the fact that he has demonstrated a willingness to play kids regardless of their experience ? It does not matter, in spite of the depth chart, if you’re a freshman or a senior – if you produce, you play. That’s very appealing to kids, that you are not automatically going to sit if you’re a freshman. Add in the prominence of the program, and the national exposure and some obscure linebackers coach who was made DC and hadn’t run a practice had absolutely NOTHING to do with the recruiting class.
Do you realize that the proposition (did Urban lie or mislead) assumed the possibility that had the Edwards departure been known to recruits prior to signing day that they all may have stayed, anyway? Or did you somehow miss that in the several places it’s been scattered about in the original post and comments?
If you subscribe to “no harm, no foul”, then emphasizing that possibility is all you need to say, and we’re done. One of the primary points, I believe, has been that dishonesty is a bad thing, even if it does not result in damage. Kinda like how Gators receivers and CBs appear to be coached to do everything short of tackling their counterparts at the line of scrimmage and for several yards past it to gain an advantage, and if they’re not caught, then nothing was wrong (how’s that for baiting?). And if the departure wouldn’t have made a difference, why not announce it anyway?
It seems to me that there’s only one possible scenario that would make the whole situation ethics-neutral on Meyer’s part: prior to the signatures of any recruits, Meyer had no idea his newly named DC was about to leave for an NFL job. That anyone could even entertain the notion that it would have been ok for him to sit on the information if he knew kinda blows my mind.
Did you somehow miss that I already spoke of it, and other possible scenarios ?
The reality is YOU didn’t know. I didn’t know. Have you spoken to every single recruit ans asked them if THEY were made aware ?
Or are you under the impression that the fans, and public at large, are privy to the same inside the house info as the players themselves ?
>
“Because it’s fun to just assume "the enemy" lied I can understand why Dawgs fans would take that stance, but there are a couple of points I’d like to make.
1. The hiring/firing would have made ZERO impact whatsoever on recruits. People saying "oh, he could use that as a selling point to get people to think it’s a path to the NFL" give me a freaking break. Half the fan base, upon his hiring, gave a collective "who?". You think the recruits were pitched that ? I can GUARANTEE you that their biggest concern was Charlie Strong not being there and the biggest counter to that is Dan McCarney who has head coaching experience and just finished helping Strong produce some potential first rounder. McCarney is a more valuable "path to the NFL pitch" than a guy who hadn’t even run a practice for the team. Get some perspective folks.
2. How do you know he didn’t tell the recruits ? Perhaps he told them via txt msg or some other method and didn’t make it PUBLIC because of the media sh*tstorm Gators fans, and enemies, would make it. Meyer believes in celebrating the players, and having news like that hit the wires would overshadow the excitement about the recruiting class.
3. It sounds more like the guy was brought in to consult on "The Tree". You know, the Parcells tree that Meyer’s pal Belichick is a part of, and who his arch rival Saban is also a part of. The same Saban that Edwards coached under and remained with through originator, Parcells. The same Saban that just got finished treating Meyer’s team like an FCS squad. You’ve got a guy who clearly knows how to coach D linemen. You’ve got a guy who knows hot to coach DBs. Why not bring in a guy to consult and give you the run down on how they do linebackers in the Parcells/Belichick/Saban tree?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“The thing is, Meyer was on a half*ssed leave of absence.
He had (he thought) his DC in place.
He stayed off the recruiting trail and let others do the visits (which is odd for him).
If it was another year, sure, I’d think something was afoot.
Given how weird this offseason was and Meyer’s lack of travel during recruiting season, I have to chalk this one up to something that fell through the cracks of a very weird offseason in which he had to delegate a lot of duties.
Well, that and the incompetence of Steve Addazio.
That being said, I am sure Meyer has some shady secret somewhere – he has an odd amount of trust in someone as incompetent as Addazio which makes me think he has some sort of dirt on Meyer.
Admittedly, Addazio is a great recruiter and a great line coach. But a competent play caller he is not."
by theboneman21 on Feb 6, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Given how weird this offseason was and Meyer’s lack of travel during recruiting season, I have to chalk this one up to something that fell through the cracks of a very weird offseason in which he had to delegate a lot of duties.
I don’t think anyone has asserted that they know all the truth of what happened. Please direct me to such an asserion if I am mistaken. I think Kyle drew reasonable inferences from what we know. You have concluded differently. Last I checked, neither you nor Kyle (nor any of us) has the authority to ban Meyer from college football. Likewise, none of us has to decide whether to accept an offer from Meyer to play football on scholarship. You can’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Kyle’s incorrect, and vice versa. This is not a criminal trial; it’s a blog entry. Personally, I think a preponderance of the competent and credible evidence points to culpability, but I have the same bias to which Kyle has freely admitted.
If you are comfortable that there is no possibility of wrongdoing, then good for you. I don’t know the genesis of your “fandom”, but if you’re like me, there’s not much choice in the matter at this point in life, and unless our names are Michael Adams, Damon Evans, Bernie Machen, or Jeremy Foley, we have no meaningful control over the situation. The best we can do is hope for/assume the best and be pleased when we have a reason to do so.
None of your business
Regardless of when Edwards resigned your lifw remains the same. The recruits are not complaining, so why are you?
Impartial observer here
I think you may have overreacted a bit here Kyle. I have to agree with Cardsfan that there are other plausible scenarios you haven’t considered. Perhaps Edwards chose to stay because he wanted to finish the job and not leave Florida empty handed when Meyer was already supposed to be taking a leave of absence. Imagine if your boss was having stress related health problems and you were given the choice between leaving two weeks before a major crunch time or sticking it out…
Of course this leaves the question of being deceptive to recruits. But first of all, this guy was a co-defensive coordinator, right? As long as he and the other people recruiting at florida were selling the program to these recruits and not Edwards personally, then I don’t have a big issue with what they did.
I think the bigger issue here is what they are telling recruits about Urban Meyer versus what his intentions really are. Will he really be the coach next year? Impossible to know unless you are Meyer, so we’ll have to take a wait and see approach. But if these kids are willing to commit with uncertainty surrounding Meyer, I just don’t see what the big deal is with a co-coordinator who’s only been there a month leaving is.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
Because of the extensive number of comments this posting has garnered . . .
. . . I feel the need to make clearer two points which I made in comments earlier in the thread. These are they:
1. I have banned theboneman21 after twice letting him know that he was skirting with a ban. He responded by making two comments, one implicit and one explicit, alluding to violence against minorities, which has no place in this discussion.
2. Although theboneman21 was unreasonable, even a broken clock is right twice a day, and, while I expressed parenthetical regret at my word choice in an earlier comment, it bears emphasis: I apologize for having referred to Urban Meyer as a soulless Cardassian cyborg, a total sleazeball, a lying scumbag, and a lying sack of crap.
I have serious doubts about Coach Meyer’s honesty, and I believe I have built the case for that proposition in a way that does not require further amplification. As I acknowledged above, I do not know everything that happened in the days surrounding national signing day, but I have attempted to reconstruct the known facts and draw reasonable inferences from the established data. I never claimed to be doing otherwise, which is why the title of this posting ends with a question mark rather than with an exclamation point.
However, Urban Meyer, being a human being, has a soul, which I understand has been saved through the grace of God. He is neither a Cardassian nor a cyborg, because Cardassians and cyborgs do not actually exist. “Sleazeball,” “scumbag,” and “sack of crap” are terms which are not meant to be taken literally, but they are meant as unflattering characterizations, and, while I believe Coach Meyer might fairly be characterized in an unflattering manner, it was beneath the standard to which I attempt to adhere, in life and on the internet, to describe him in such base terms. Finally, while “liar” is an implicit criticism anytime anyone calls into question another person’s honesty, such an express animadversion was unnecessary.
I apologize for my use of those words and I ask your forgiveness. While my use of the offending terms was not defamatory, I try to hold myself to a higher standard than mere legality. I will not remove those words from the posting because I do not believe it is appropriate to sweep my mistakes under the rug as though I were airbrushing Leon Trotsky out of the Soviet history books. What has happened has happened and must be confronted honestly. I stand by the remainder of the preceding posting and my subsequent comments.
Go 'Dawgs!
You know, the funny thing is that theboneman
kept pretty much the same approach the entire time. When confronted with facts, he either ignored them and retorted with opinion, or he used some sort of non-sequitur that he believed would be witty and crown him the winner. The guy’s a troll. I’m just glad he’s finally gone.
by hailtogeorgia on Feb 10, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
its been a long time since we had a drink.
You meant it as a humorous line without the expectation it would turn in to 200 posts in a full on blog debate. I am not a supporter of “attention getting lines” but – knowing this blog, that wasn’ your intent.
It was a Star Trek reference. It isnt that hard core.
- cheers
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
We have had some discussion about Herb also
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/2/4/1292792/florida-loses-new-dc-to-buffalo
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
What is really going on in Gainesville?
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Sarasota thinks there is more to it than meets the eye!
http://www.sarasotaspeaks.com/node/55432
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Meyer also shot JFK.....
Sprinkle some sugar on those grapes T Kyle.
I know it’s easier to focus on how you think UF got its recruiting class instead of coming to grips with UGA’s mediocre group of future 4-time losers to UF.
Da’Rick Rogers chose Derrick Dooley over Mark Richt…..hilarious….
by Pouncey Triplets on Feb 11, 2010 11:15 AM EST reply actions
Meyer hatin' Ute!
I’m a long time Utah Ute fan, so I’ve been tired of Urban’s crap for years. Funny how stand up guy Kyle Whittingham achieved the exact same thing that Meyer did a few years later (undefeated season and bcs bowl victory) and got maybe a fourth of the media love. Keep the radar up on “Mr. Ambien”.
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