No One Told Wally Butts Jacksonville Was Hotter For Us Than For Them
by T Kyle King on Feb 15, 2010 8:47 PM EST
in Football
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PrintThe following passage appeared in Fumble, James Kirby’s account of the scandal (and subsequent landmark defamation case) arising out of The Saturday Evening Post’s allegation that Alabama head coach Bear Bryant and Georgia athletic director Wally Butts had conspired to fix a football game between the Bulldogs and the Crimson Tide:
Though Butts had refused to take a lie detector test before he resigned as athletic director, after his resignation he journeyed to Jacksonville, Florida, which his lawyer called "neutral ground," and passed a test administered by Edward L. Quinn, a private detective.
I think it’s rather telling that, in a drama involving the Georgia football program centered around Athens, Atlanta, and Birmingham, Coach Butts’s legal counsel deemed the home of the World’s Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party a neutral site.
Go ‘Dawgs!
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I had never heard this story. I still haven't heard all of it.
That being said, I can also tell you that my first employer would probably tell you what a scoundrel you are for even bringing up such a story.
Since buildings still have his name attached to them and such, I’m assuming that it was never proven that there was a fix?
Your assumption is correct, although I would go farther than that
Coach Butts immediately and vehemently denied the allegations, resigned as athletic director, filed suit against the Curtis Publishing Company (owner of the Post) within a week of the publication of the article, and won a multimillion-dollar defamation verdict. Although the judgment was reduced on appeal (and the case produced a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision on defamation of “public figures,” who are well known but who are not government officials), Coach Butts was vindicated and the Post ultimately went out of business.
I’m currently reading Fumble for a book review at the request of a fellow SB Nation blogger, so you’ll get the full story this offseason, but the Post’s reporting was shoddy and the product of a muckraking editor (his term, not mine) and a writer with an axe to grind against college football. A prominent contributor to the article was Furman Bisher, who then was being sued by Bear Bryant over a previous article. Bisher went on to spread irresponsible allegations about Tiger Woods and defend himself by telling readers to quit reading stuff they saw on the internet.
As I was typing this, I saw your subsequent (9:07) comment appear, so I know you no longer need this response, but I figured it was worth sharing on behalf of a good man and a damn good ’Dawg. (He is buried in Oconee Hill Cemetery, literally in the shadow of Sanford Stadium.)
Go 'Dawgs!
Thanks for the reply.
While I did read a little bit about it, what I read didn’t have the detail that you provided in a similar space.
Furman Bisher…… let’s see, that’s the old guy who writes for that fish wrapper in Atlanta right? Yeah, I don’t read that wrapper, don’t want to condemn my poor garbage can with that stuff.
You know, Bisher was a close friend of Bobby Dodd and Homer Rice
(Sorry I beat you to the punch, vineyarddawg.)
Go 'Dawgs!
Dadgummit...
… I gotta be quicker on the draw next time.
by vineyarddawg on Feb 15, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
The Post (alleged) scandal
Required UGA lore. I’d put it somewhere between the 1960 Orange Bowl score and the opponent at the Redcoats’ 1906 sporting event debut as a non-cadet ensemble.
by NCT on Feb 15, 2010 11:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Neutral Ground
A troubled Dawg knows where truth and decency reside. The important part of Florida still has remembrance of the Old South. Ya’ll come on down and we’ll fix you something to eat and provide shelter from all enemies. Just leave that red and black stuff in Valdosta when you fill up.
Leave it in Valdosta?
Last time I checked, Jacksonville was still home to the largest Bulldog Club outside the metro Atlanta area . . . and to a winning record by Georgia against Florida. We’ll wear our red and black quite proudly there, thank you very much.
Go 'Dawgs!
Oh my! What a bitter response to a heartfelt welcome from a neighbor.
It vexes me to think that I may have been the source of bitterness in bringing to mind the fact that you have seen what…. maybe one Georgia victory since you began shaving? Forget all that and come on down. The palm trees are waving, birds are singing and it’s colder than a well digger’s ass here too. A lttle heat from a rival is welcome.
Ooooooooo!!!! I know!!!!
You can fry us up some gator!!!!!!!! Serve it with a little honey mustard on the side…YUM!!!!!!!!
You got to earn Gator tail whistlebritches.
You better cultivate a taste for sausage Dawgs. It’s become popular around here. Chomp!
I hope my team will do that for me VERY soon!!
BUT with $8 and a drive of about 30 miles, I can purchase me a pound of Gator and then drive home and fry it up myself!!! I really do love it!
Oh, and for what it’s worth, I didn’t take your comment with the least bit of animosity. Sounded like good ribbin’ to me!
Gator ribbing right?
Actually I don’t care as much for the ribs as I do the tail…(don’t start). Four to seven footers are the best sizes. If they’re over seven feet the meat starts to get grainy and needs to be cubed to tender it up. Large ones get that yellow fat that has to be trimmed out before cooking (pain in the butt). Not that I’ve ever done it or anything, gators are precious and protected. No animosity intended from these quarters, ever. Have a great weekend Dawgs!
Valdosta?
Can’t we take it least as far as Fargo?
by NCT on Feb 15, 2010 11:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Jeez Louise NCT
I have to put up with a little red and black all the way to the keys. Pockets of resistance you know.
Dial it back a little bit, renegator
I like you, and I don’t mind having you around, but, when I started shaving, my team kicked your team’s ass on every bit as regular a basis as your team kicks my team’s ass today. Hell, I was shaving before your team had ever won anything.
What goes around comes around. If I were in your position . . . scratch that. When I was in your position, I enjoyed victory and didn’t talk crap, understanding full well that the last line of “Patton” is a truth worth remembering: “All glory is fleeting.” Enjoy it while it lasts, and learn from my example once the Gators’ day is done. It’ll be sooner than you think.
Go 'Dawgs!
Don't waste your time, Kyle
Just another Gator who doesn’t quite get it. Florida football is kinda like a bottle of beer. These folk’s sense of history only goes back so far:
Gator Football – Born on Date: December 31, 1989
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
obviously I have a dog (no pun intended) in this fight...
but what is the expiration date for the “your team has no history” attack? That one has been going on for about 2 decades, and it’s gotten quite tiresome. Off the top of my head, I believe that the modern era of college football began in 1936. A very basic knowledge of the state of Florida tells you that the state had very few inhabitants at that point, and wouldn’t see the huge boom for several decades. Obviously we’re talking Florida football, but it really is impossible to track the emergence of the program without mentioning the other 2 programs in Florida; Miami, and FSU. All 3 basically emerged within a decade of each other, and have controlled the collegiate football landscape ever since. The numbers don’t lie on that, and the state itself has been represented in the NCG an astounding amount since 1980, but I degress.
If the modern era is from 1936 to now, that’s a period of 74 years. The University of Florida has been the winningest program in the country since 1990. That means that for 27% of the entire modern era, Florida has been the best team in the land. Whether or not they had any sustained success before that period, having the best overall program for over a quarter of the modern era speaks for itself. That is a level of success that very few other programs can match, and UGA isn’t one of them. I’m not the kind of Florida fan that believes that this run will last forever, and I know that success is fleeting. To be fair though, our rivals have been preaching this since the early 90s, and yet here we sit. It is unlikely that Florida will continue at the break neck pace of the last 4 years, but to expect them to fall away entirely is naive. I look forward to this years “cocktail party” and hopefully I’ll see some of you there….Go Gators.
For what it's worth ...
As far as I’m concerned, UF football goes back farther than most UF fans will admit: 1904 (Georgia 52, Florida 0).
Cardsfan25..
It’s not really an attack. It is more of an observation. I live in south Florida and vast majority of my co-workers are UF grads. And pardon me if I’m a little touchy on the whole subject of this rivalry and the last 20 years or so, but if you want tiresome try walking in my shoes since I relocated down here in 1993. As my grandad used to say, “Don’t lecture me, Sonny!” I don’t expect sympathy. Our teams didn’t win, no excuses (except we did get screwed in ’93 with the whole timeout thingy. Can.Worms.)
There are two types of Florida fans: The ones who are about 30-years-old or younger who have no or very little recollection of the true essence of this rivalry. Basically, these fans have had it pretty good and for good reason: their Gator teams for the most part have been excellent and have, let’s face it, whipped our ass except for a handful of years. If you are a 30 year old Gator, you’ve enjoyed crazy success for at least 2/3 of your life. Not too shabby. These are the very individuals I refer to in my previous post.
The other type of Florida fans are the ones closer to my age and experience who circle the date in Jacksonville every late October/early November because a good chunk of football prior to 1990 often wasn’t so good to Gator Nation, with many an SEC championship bid crushed in Jacksonville by good Georgia teams, average Georgia teams and sometimes bad Georgia teams. To these more seasoned individuals, the Geogia game is the game. Prior to 1990 a betting man would never put down good currency on the Gators any given year for good reason. Georgia usually won and any Gator who can actually remember Watergate, S.A.L.T. talks, gas lines, Chevy Vegas, and Billy Beer can attest to this.
So, when renegator’s post became a bit inflammatory and took on the tone and timbre of a troll, I reacted the way I did. Bottom line, I don’t even discuss the rivalry with any Gator under 30 because they cannot relate because in their universe, their only frame of reference is really the last 20 years. Totally different mindsets. Old vs. Young.
Incidentally, are you a St. Louis Cardinals fan? My brother-in-law is with the team.
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
by DavetheDawg on Feb 16, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
lucky for me..
I met your cutoff for talking to Florida fans by 3 weeks (turned 30 in Jan), though I understand your point. As a “younger” Gator fan, I’ve actually tried to learn as much as I could about the past, as dubious as it may be, and much of that past deals directly with UGA…watching the Spurrier interviews when he talked about UGA are only funny now, because of the recent success. I can admit that it’s pretty much impossible for me to “understand” the rivalry the way the older Gators do, but the UGA fans certainly do their best to help me with that. It’s true that as a fanbase we’ve enjoyed a ridiculous amount of success the last 20 years, and it’s also true that many of the younger Gators don’t seem to realize the cyclical nature, or ebb and flow of the college football landscape…
I think it’s pretty typical of most fanbases for there to be a disconnect between eras of fans. I personally take issue with many of the recent grads at UF who enjoyed multiple national titles in multiple sports, and do have an almost unbearable level of obnoxiousness. I was there for Zook, so I certainly still remember the 5 loss seasons…
And to your question, yes I’m a huge Cardinal fan. It’s Cardinals and Gators for me, with all my other allegiances secondary to those two. If I may ask, who is your brother in law? Nice talking to you…
It's all good
I would say something about Zook, but I really can’t since even the Zooker Zooked us.
My brother-in-law is Jeff Murphy. Catching instructor, bullpen catcher, jack of all trades. He has a very good life…
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
by DavetheDawg on Feb 16, 2010 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
I imagine
and having Yadi Molina probably makes life even easier (that guy has a cannon)…My parents are friends with Butch Wieneger, who I believe is currently coaching in Columbus for the Yanks, but used to be the hitting instructor for the Brewers. It’s not a bad existence, though the coaches tend to shoulder a sometimes unfair amount of blame for poor production. I hope your brother in law is a savant, and keeps the Cards flush with top notch catchers for here to forever…
Since we're talkin' baseball
On a football blog I guess you can say the ‘09 season is deader’n heck.
"If we score, we may win. If they never score, we'll never lose."
-Erk Russell
by DavetheDawg on Feb 16, 2010 12:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that's a pretty accurate
assessment…I’m already jonesin for some spring practice updates, but equally excited about pitchers and catchers reporting…
Nah.
This is a baseball blog, too. Just wait until the Diamond Dogs’ season kicks up. Kyle’s write-ups after each game are typically impressive and thorough.
by vineyarddawg on Feb 16, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Tone and timbre
I suppose the tone and timbre are somewhat subjective. Trollish behavior was not the intent but obviously it was percieved to be inflammatory by some. I am well past 30 and I have a full understanding of the rivalry. I began listening to radio broadcasts of UF games in the early sixties and I remember well the years that the Gators did not fare so well against the Dawgs. I will, in the future keep attempts at humor closer to home. It is sometimes difficult to know where the line is between good natured ribbing and trollery. My bad.
It's all right, renegator
I knew you were of my generation (at least), but I may have overreacted to the “sonny boy” tone of your previous comment.
Rivalries get heated and gestures, expressions, and vocal intonations that clearly would imply good-natured ribbing in face-to-face communications oftentimes are lost on the internet.
My bad for not giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Go 'Dawgs!
Having your own blog
Means never having to say you’re sorry. As much as I love college football, I care about people more. I’ve had farmers in Georgia run me down to put a Bulldog hat on my head and I have crawled through the dead of night to put Gator stickers on their trucks, tractors, dog pens etc. The relationship has always been a fun one for me whether the Gators were winning or losing. I hate losing but I am not a stranger to it. All things are cyclical and believe me, I can take it as well as dish it out. When the UF ferris wheel reaches the ground floor, I’ll make myself available for all critique. However, I will still talk some trash, it’s the nature of the game.
looking over those games
Florida represented in the NCG
Miami 83
Miami 86
Miami 87
Miami 89
Miami 91
Miami 92
FSU 93
Miami 94
Florida 95
FSU 96
Florida 96
FSU 98
FSU 99
FSU 2000
Miami 01
Miami 02
Florida 06
Florida 08
Wow, Miami was really good, we have a ways to go to match them in the 80s…
either way between 1983 and 2008 the state of Florida was represented in the NCG 18 times…that’s absurd. Also it makes us Gators kind of pale in comparison to the dominance of Miami, but at least we have 1 more title than FSU. Just thought this was interesting…
that is an interesting look, but "represent" doesnt equal wins. The media had a huge love affair with Miami, and FSU found itselt on probation at one point.
and now both schools are no where near those kinds of runs.
"I look forward to developing an aggressive, physical, attacking style defense that offenses will not look forward to playing against." - Coach Grantham
I get that
but let’s not pretend like this list isn’t impressive, and of these 18 appearances they took home 10 titles, with one game being between 2 Florida teams (96)…I had this discussion with a Texas fan the other day, and after looking it over, there really isn’t a more impressive run by any other state in CFB history…that’s mainly because no other state has had such a seamless transition from one dominant team to another. There really is no other way to describe that 25 year run, as anything other than extremely impressive.
There's no doubt about it.
Forget Bowden and the Heisman winners. FSU, Miami, and UF should each have a statue of Willis Carrier outside their stadiums.
Glad you were able to follow the causation links
Sometimes I have a higher opinion of my cleverness than is warranted and my references thud in their obscurity.
Several Bear Bryant biographies have a detailed account of the accusations ...
……. interesting reading for all scholars of college football.
It's a gas, gas, gas.
by Keith Richards on Feb 16, 2010 11:29 AM EST reply actions
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