There Simply is No Basis for Believing Lane Kiffin Will Succeed
by T Kyle King on Jun 8, 2009 9:39 PM EDT
in Football
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PrintSenator Blutarsky doesn’t miss much, so, when he says he just doesn’t get it, you can bet it isn’t for lack of intellect or lack of effort. If he can’t make at least some semblance of sense out of what you’re saying and doing, there’s a pretty good chance your behavior is nonsensical. Brian Cook, who kept an open mind at first, agrees.
To his credit, CornFromAJar does the best he can with the meager material Lane Kiffin has given him:
Spurrier's cleverness is/was only apparent because he won games, something Kiffin hasn't had a chance to do yet. A comparison to the OBC is apt only because both Spurrier and Kiffin have a knack for spouting off. Though, if you notice, Spurrier only does so after the fact; I can't think of a single time Spurrier has run his mouth before putting a beatdown on someone, and "you can't spell Citrus..." only has punch if you're going to New Orleans on the regular. So, yeah, the preemptive bravado coming from Kiffin is something new. Does it mean Kiffin is less intelligent, less clever than Spurrier and others? Maybe, but I'm not sure that conclusion can be drawn yet, just as I can't claim Kiffin as a genius, either. At this point I believe the most that can be said is Kiffin shows extreme lack of judgement at worst and gross audacity at best, and we'll have to see how it all works out in a few years.
As to how it will all work out, of course I, like you, have no idea. Kiffin's recruiting machine seems to give Tennessee the chance to succeed but it's no guarantee. Kiffin could sabotage the whole thing with his tomfoolery, and if he does, what we'll be left with (to answer GtP's question) is a few dismal records in the media guide and another coaching search, probably preceded by a new athletic director. We've seen several of our SEC brethren go through the same and live, so that too shall pass if the need arises.
Here's the thing: I have no idea if Kiffin will succeed or fail, and that's what makes it fun. Tennessee football hasn't been particularly fun in the past several years. I don't mean the actual games, those are always fun, but the general aura around Vol football had been kind of a downer of late: the forecast for what turned out to be the final Fulmer years was mostly cloudy with a chance of Atlanta. And there's something comforting in meeting expectations, no matter how mediocre those expectations are. But what we're seeing now is that the unknown is exciting, maybe a little scary, possibly even embarrassing at times, but fun.
So you don't "get" what's going on in Knoxville? I don't either necessarily, and I don't really feel the need to. I'm just watching, with more interest than any other time in recent years, and waiting for what's next.
Senator Blutarsky credited CornFromAJar with authoring a "thoughtful and honest" response, but he had a follow-up question:
[I]f going in a radically different direction, and by that I mean ignoring convention and tradition to a significant extent, was the approach embraced by Hamilton from the start, why didn’t he talk seriously to somebody like Mike Leach who’s been very successful on the college level? Leach (who has an SEC coaching background, unlike Junior) with some stellar recruiters could have been a force in the conference, could he not?
The Senator has gotten to the crux of the issue here. While I respect CornFromAJar’s need as a fan to defend what is increasingly clearly a highly dubious coaching hire by his favorite team---believe me; I spent five years as a Jim Donnan apologist, so I feel his pain---I don’t see where "fun" is much of an excuse.
When I was 20 years old, I remember thinking how boring Vince Dooley’s brand of football was. It was dull because it was so predictable. We always knew Georgia was going to run the ball. We always knew Georgia was going to play stout defense and keep the score low. We always knew Georgia was going to beat Kentucky and Vanderbilt. We always knew Georgia was a better bet than not to beat Florida and Georgia Tech. We always knew Georgia was going to a bowl game.
By the time I was 30, I was tired of the excitement generated by pass-happy offenses, overworked defenses, scoring four touchdowns in a loss, considering the Kentucky and Vanderbilt games toss-ups, and uncertainty regarding the postseason. Now, at 40, when I say Mark Richt is a boring coach, I am paying him a high compliment. Ain’t nothing more fun than a W.
If Lane Kiffin wants to be an entertainer, he should consider becoming a lounge singer. (Admit it; you have absolutely no difficulty conjuring up that image, do you? Shouldn’t that tell you something?) In his present line of work, his job is to win football games. I don’t care how much buzz he generates around the Volunteer program by acting like a ninny with a company credit card and no conception of consequences; once he gets done dancing around the living room in his underwear, he’s going to have to answer to a responsible adult for the preponderance of bass apparent on the stereo.
Is it fair for CornFromAJar to claim that he has no idea whether Lane Kiffin will succeed or fail? I will grant that none of us knows for certain, but surely we have some idea, don’t we? A 5-15 record as a head coach may not be definitive, but it isn’t irrelevant, is it?
I’m not going to quarrel with the notion that hiring an unknown quantity can work out in the end. Hiring the 31-year-old coach of the Auburn freshman team was a bold move on Joel Eaves’s part in 1963, one that no one thought would produce 201 wins over the next 25 years, but it did exactly that. Even Eaves, though, had something to go on, having previously crossed paths with the young Vince Dooley on the Plains.
At a minimum, shouldn’t there be some legitimate basis for believing a guy can coach? Steve Spurrier won an A.C.C. championship at Duke and Urban Meyer led Utah to an undefeated season before either of them got the call from Gainesville. Les Miles upended Oklahoma twice ere he was hired in Baton Rouge. Jim Tressel worked out a good deal better than Jim Donnan, but at least both men had Division I-AA national championships on their resumes. Bob Stoops worked out a good deal better than Mike Stoops, but at least both men had established track records as defensive coordinators.
What, precisely, does Lane Kiffin bring to the table as a head coach? If your answer is recruiting, you’re well on your way to losing an argument. Plenty of good recruiters have made lousy head coaches; Ray Goff and Ron Zook spring immediately to mind. Absolutely nothing in Lane Kiffin’s resume, before his hiring or since, suggests that he is up to the task before him. If what he’s bringing the Tennessee fan base is fun, I wish them well; when the fun part of football is the offseason, you’re in for a long fall.
Go ‘Dawgs!
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Only 11 returning starters, and
UT has a schedule that might not look as easy as the schedules looked when Phil was coaching, drawing Auburn, and road trips to Alabama and Ole Miss from the West, not to mention hosting UCLA the second week of the season. I expect a 3-5 record in the SEC, and a 7-5 record overall. But that may be wishful thinking, cause I’m enjoying all the stir Kiffin is causing, and I definitely want him back next year, haha.
by Dawgomatic,forthePeople on Jun 8, 2009 10:10 PM EDT reply actions
If a coach could be a success in the SEC simply by recruiting well, Orgeron wouldn’t be an assistant, and he wouldn’t be at Tennessee.
100 cocktails to you, sir!
Precisely. If the question is, “Why will your new head coach succeed?” and your answer is, “Recruiting,” you’ve answered the wrong question. If all your head coach has to offer is recruiting, that’s a reason why the guy hired to replace him three years from now will succeed.
Go 'Dawgs!
See, e.g., Callahan, Bill, Nebraska
Another Raider castoff. Also brought in good recruiting classes. Also delivered zero results on the field.
And yet, Tennessee hires Lane Kiffin and Texas A&M hires Mike Sherman. Good luck, boys.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Jun 8, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose "waiting to see some actual football" is out of the question?
Relax, everybody. No one knows nothin’, either way.
________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.
(Including any of us in l'orange.)
Which is all by way of saying, simply: Well, no, There Simply is No Basis for Believing Lane Kiffin Will Succeed, and the reason for that is not “Oooh, him a loudmouth”, but rather that in order to “succeed” he will first have to “coach football games”, and it’s June.
________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.
by Holly Anderson on Jun 9, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate the clarification, Holly
It isn’t exactly accurate to claim that we know nothing, but it is fair to argue that we don’t yet know enough. All I am saying is that, based on what we do know, any success would be a surprise, and, anytime a fan base’s reaction to a successful coaching hire is “I sure didn’t see that one working out,” your athletic director probably got incredibly lucky. No one was shocked by Urban Meyer’s and Nick Saban’s successes; everyone’s reaction was, “Yep, that’s pretty much what I figured.” Even half that level of success from Lane Kiffin would be shocking.
I find it hard to believe that anyone disagrees with that . . . and, given that I have never been among the members of the diurnal Kiffin-bashing brigade, I was disappointed to learn of your disappointment. Did this really seem like a fair characterization of the foregoing? If so, I fear we have the greatest gap between what I meant and what you understood me to mean since I tried (and, evidently, failed) to persuade Peter Bean that he was a better fan and a better man than his favorite baseball player deserved.
Go 'Dawgs!
TKK, you know I lurve you.
And I know you have a job to do and a fanbase that hates mine to rally. This all strikes me as sensationalist, is all, which is an odd thing to see at this fine institution. I find it difficult to correlate acting like a crazy person with utter lack of football coaching success (see: Miles, Les; Nutt, Houston; Leach, Mike). Mind, Kiffykins isn’t any of those three guys, and he’s inheriting a program with problems they don’t have, but it seems clear to me there is room in the sport for all levels of sanity.
I guess you could call me a militant agnostic with regards to Kiffin’s prognosis. Football will settle this debate, and anybody, pro or con, arguing to the contrary between now and September is just trying to fill summer space. (I myself solved this problem by devoting 500 words to the new stripe on Boise State’s uniforms last week, though, so in principle your recourse at least appears to be more fun.)
________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.
by Holly Anderson on Jun 9, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope he sticks around and makes things interesting
Because I really want Seth Rogen to star if they make a Kiffin biopic.
Leaving insightful football commentary and analysis to other people since 2006.
If Kiffin even wins eight games
It’s going to be a lot of fun reading posts on y’all’s blogs.
"Florida didnt win their first SEC title until 1991 and now they think they invented football."
-Ron Zook
Reasons I want Kiffin to succeed
1) His wife is hot, and we’ll see more of her.
2) He seems to get under Urban Meyer’s skin, and the look on Meyer’s face, win or lose, this year during their game will be priceless. That end-of-game handshake will be great, and I won’t be surprised if Urban karate chops Kiffin.
3) His wife is hot, and we’ll see more of her.
4) He’s like a bad comedian, calling out other teams for minor violations or not recruiting their home state well, then committing minor violations and not recruiting his home state well. I mean…really, that’s just funny stuff.
5) His wife is hot, and we’ll see more of her.
addendum
and by succeed, I mean :
- win 7 or 8 games at most
- never sniff the SEC East title
- never beat UGA
- beat UF every year or every other year
and somehow the fanbase accepts and embraces this for 10+ years.
I feel confident that Kiffin can win 9-10 games
I am not sure how he’ll fare in his third season however…..
For All the Vol Fans
…who think it’s a lock that UT will win seven or eight…and could even win ten (yep, I’ve seen it in print), I have two words:
Jonathan Crompton.
The Vols' schedule is uncharacteristically soft
Kiffin could plant a broom at the 10-yard line with a jersey draped over it as his QB, and still have a better than 50-50 shot at six wins. It doesn’t take much imagination to think 7 or 8 wins is possible. Not likely necessarily, but possible.
Anyway, I think most Vol fans aren’t expecting much from this season, so we can just have fun watching rival fans burst veins in their foreheads while Kiffykins lines up top 10 recruiting classes. Worst case for his long-term trajectory is he stocks the cupboard with recruits and someone else comes in and wins with them. Best case is he actually lives up to the trash he’s talking. So I’m not real worried either way.
"Florida didnt win their first SEC title until 1991 and now they think they invented football."
-Ron Zook
UT and UF are tied all time at 19-19
But it is interesting to note that when Spurrier arrived on campus in the fall of ‘90 UT held a 13-6 edge.
That means starting this fall, UT will have a losing all-time record against Florida for the first time in school history. I think UT’s coach and his mouth has solidified that prediction.
There's also no basis for believing Kiffin will fail.
A 5-15 record as a head coach may not be definitive, but it isn’t irrelevant, is it?
If you’re basing Kiffin’s likelihood to fail on his NFL record, what do you do with Spurrier’s 12-20 NFL record?
(Yes I understand that Spurrier established himself in college ball… and—as Holly pointed out above—that’s something Kiffin hasn’t had a chance to do yet.)
Thanks for taking the time to reply, CornFromAJar
I think you’ve answered your own question, though. Steve Spurrier proved himself at Duke before getting the Florida job, then proved himself again at Florida. He’s also done pretty well at South Carolina, at least by South Carolina standards.
If you want to argue that many failed N.F.L. coaches have succeeded at the college level (Pete Carroll, Nick Saban), that’s a fair argument . . . but at least Coach Carroll and the Armani Bear came across as mature adults.
As I said, CornFromAJar, you did the best you could with what your head coach has given you, but all he’s given you that’s good is a valid reason to believe he will leave the cupboard stocked for his competent successor.
You’re right . . . we don’t know. But “we don’t know” (which was Holly’s point) and “we have no idea” (which was your point) aren’t the same thing. We have an idea. My idea that he’s going to be a disaster may be wrong, but it has some basis in the evidence. Other than wishful thinking, what evidence do the Tennessee faithful now have that he isn’t going to be a disaster?
As annual rivals go, Tennessee has far and away my favorite fan base. While I know at least a handful of good fans from all of our perennial opponents, the Volunteer faithful have (in my experience; others’ experiences may vary) the most reasonable, likeable fan base of any I encounter on a yearly basis. Given that, I have to think it means something that intelligent, articulate Tennessee fans can’t come up with anything better than “Lane Kiffin is making football fun!” and “Lane Kiffin is getting our name out there!” and “Lane Kiffin is impressing recruits!” and “Lane Kiffin is ticking people off, so he must be doing something right!” and “Layla Kiffin is hot!” Comments like this are silly and more than a little bit sad.
No one is saying things like “Lane Kiffin has learned his craft and is ready to revive a major program” or “Lane Kiffin is an X-and-O guy who knows his way around a film room” or “Lane Kiffin is a proven motivator and molder of raw talent” or “Lane Kiffin has proven himself as a coordinator or as a head coach at a lower-tier school.” Those were the sorts of things that were said (truthfully) of Urban Meyer, Les Miles, Mark Richt, Nick Saban, Steve Spurrier, Tommy Tuberville, and, yes, Phillip Fulmer.
Maybe he is those things . . . but, if so, he’s managed to keep it a secret even from his most ardent supporters. You’re right that he hasn’t had a chance to prove himself as a Division I-A college head football coach . . . but, then again, neither have I. You know why? Because there’s no reason to think I could do it. While Lane Kiffin’s coaching resume is better than mine, it isn’t so much better that he has proven his worthiness to take over a program with Tennessee’s history, tradition, and support.
You know and I know that, right now, all the evidence that exists suggests that this is going to be a disaster from September through November, no matter how much of a success it may be in February. Maybe the evidence is so spotty as to be incomplete, but what we have now is not promising.
Deep down, all fans fret over things they don’t like to admit. At some level, every Alabama fan worries that Nick Saban is going to bolt for the N.F.L., every L.S.U. fan worries that Les Miles has been more lucky than good, every South Carolina fan worries that Steve Spurrier is past it, every Florida fan worries that Urban Meyer will leave for Notre Dame, and every Georgia fan worries that Mark Richt may be too nice a guy to win a national championship. None of us likes owning up to those fears—-it wouldn’t surprise me if this comment drew responses from fans of all of those schools protesting that they’ve never thought such a thing and explaining in great detail why those fears are unfounded—-but they’re there, and we all know it.
Every Tennessee fan’s fear is that Lane Kiffin is Mike Shula in dreamsickle orange. Deep down, you’re worried that, by mid-October, the message boards will be lit up with comment threads asking rhetorically, “We fired a national championship-winning alum for this?” Maybe we’re all wrong to think that, but every one of us acknowledges the possibility and every one of us knows that, based on what we’ve seen so far, it’s more likely than not that this will be a train wreck.
It could be worse, though. You could have hired Gene Chizik. I hate Auburn.
Go 'Dawgs!
Not trying to start a war here
I enjoy the work you guys do here but I had to chime in on a few things..
If the question is, "Why will your new head coach succeed?" and your answer is, "Recruiting," you’ve answered the wrong question. If all your head coach has to offer is recruiting, that’s a reason why the guy hired to replace him three years from now will succeed.
Kiffin was announced as head coach the day after our last game of the season. The only things that really pertain to what we’re going to see on the field this fall that have occurred since then are assembling a coaching staff, recruiting and spring practice. So it’s a reasonable to refer to a solid recruiting class as a response when you ask why we feel optimistic about our coach.
Maybe he is those things . . . but, if so, he’s managed to keep it a secret even from his most ardent supporters.
Its been kept a “secret” because things like increased practice efficiency and intensity, more discipline (knock on wood but no player arrests since Kiffin was hired) aren’t being fed to the casual observer. The non Tennessee fan isn’t going to click on a link about the impact the new zone blocking scheme is having on the running game or how the defensive ends are given much more liberty to be aggressive off the edge this year as part of Monte’s defensive scheme.
The fact that Kiffin has been a bull in a china shop when you place a camera or a microphone in front of him has nothing to do with what we’re going to see on the field this fall. I don’t buy a lot of the “its by design” stuff either, but what I do buy into is what I read about whats happening in practice and on the recruiting trail because as of right now that’s where the most telling signs of what were going to see in September are going to be.
"The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."
by Getoffmyvols on Jun 9, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Best choice?
What has puzzled me about the hire is what Kyle so succinctly stated: While Lane Kiffin’s coaching resume is better than mine, it isn’t so much better that he has proven his worthiness to take over a program with Tennessee’s history, tradition, and support.
For the life of me I can’t understand what Hamilton was thinking in hiring this guy. A school with UT’s tradition bottom feeding in the coaching ranks? I wouldn’t stake my reputation on Kiffen being able to tie his shoes, much less coach my football team. Hamilton went all in with his chips on that hire and, I dare say, his career is probably on the line.
I’m still in shock that a team with UT’s history of success, coaching tradition, fan support and resources selected Kiffin in an open casting call. As for the Vol fans poo-pooing Kiffin’s hiring, what would they be saying if UGA or UF hired a coach of Kiffin’s “stature”?
"While Lane Kiffin's coaching resume is better than mine..."
Is it really though?
Would you rather have an awful coaching record or no record at all?
Would you rather hire a coach who has proven he’s not very good or an unproven guy who might be bad, but might also be very good?
(Disclaimer : This in no way reflects my opinion of Lane Kiffin. (Well, it kinda does.) Just playing devil’s advocate here, don’t take this too serious Vols fans. Yall are okay by my book (actually, that was a big lie, I don’t like yall at all.) This was a bad disclaimer, I’m sorry (not really).
by UgaBulldog14 on Jun 10, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Realistic expectations versus Outside (Mis-)Perceptions
Every serious Vols preseason prognostication shows a range of 7-9 wins. The usual breakdown includes ‘gimme wins’ against W Ky, UCLA, Ohio, Memphis, Vandy and Kentucky. We also expect to pick up wins vs. Auburn and South Carolina because those are at home. That’s eight. Some expect a slip-up in the second group. And, a few hope for/expect an additional win out of the @Florida, vs Georgia, @Bama, and @Ole Miss set some way or some how.
That puts us in a mid-level bowl and we take our chances. Good improvement from 5-7. No SEC title. No National Championship claims. No expectations for another undefeated season. This year, anyway. For SEC fans who are passionate about their school, there’s no insanity there. Kind of unusual in the SEC, right?
I love all the focus on Lane Kiffin. I don’t like his style and miss the gentlemanly ways of Fulmer. But I am glad that someone has to come up with a new game plan for UT rather than dusting off the same playbook we have used for 15 years or so.
Pete Carroll can coach and he doesn’t hire bad assistants. Lane Kiffin was his offensive coordinator and did a great job. That’s not head coach at Duke, but it’s pretty good. His Daddy is a living legend – no need to go into that. Coach O didn’t make it as a head coach, but Ole Miss is pretty darn good right now because their talent level is a lot higher. We are still waiting on a ‘thank you note’ from Houston Nutt. The other coaches have all excelled in their respective college or NFL careers. The point is: the SEC isn’t coaching against a one-man caricature created by the media; that’s a great staff.
Tennessee should be top 10 in the nation, again, on defense. Coach Chavis left a full cupboard in the secondary and Kiffin’s guys recruited some good talent. LB and the line may be thinner than we would like, but 2010 class looks promising there, based on unreliable early verbals.
Special teams should become special again as UT finally has a dedicated special teams coach. Maybe we can stop somebody from returning every KO to the 35, a punt return for a touchdown every other game and not throw a fake punt INT for a TD (Florida).
The offense is the key question mark. Zone blocking in the line should help. The #1 RB in the country and another top 10 RB should help. So should taking away Florida-level talent at WR. If scheme and better skill position talent can overcome a below-average QB, we should be better. We’ll see.
So, where’s the Orange Kool-Aid in all that?
One final thought: All this hype over secondary violations is way, way overblown. It helps us and is not unwelcome, but no sane person can argue it is fair & balanced. How many secondary violations does each SEC school have for their football program over the same period (since Kiffin was hired)? We have either 5 or 6 secondary violations, depending on whether the ESPN-baited Outside The Lines report was a violation or not. How about the other programs? (We know Ohio State averaged 41 secondary violations per year in the early part of the decade.) Show me some numbers, please.
Should be a fun summer!
9 or 10 wins? Really?
I don’t think any SEC team can go ahead and pencil in a win against UCLA or Kentucky, and just ask Florida and Tennessee Georgia how easy it is to beat Vandy without the help of a fortunate play at the right time (or, in the Gators case, a fortunate call from the referee). Frank Solich is running a solid Ohio program, as well, and while they really shouldn’t beat a good SEC team, anybody can have a “down” day. (For example… maybe when playing at home against a team with clearly inferior talent from a state with only 3 electoral votes and one of the ugliest uniforms outside of the beaver state.)
First-year coaches are notorious for having “down” seasons during their first year, with only a few exceptions when the cupboard was full to begin with when they got there (Stoops and Coker come to mind, and relative to expectations, Paul Johnson, too). I have seen no compelling reason to believe this year’s Tennessee team won’t follow the established pattern.
Looking at the schedule breakdown you listed, I would see wins against the Blood Clots, Bobcats, Tennessee Tigers, and War Eagle/Plainsmen/Alabama Tigers (due to the Chizik factor). All other games are question marks in my book, and I would pencil in losses to Florida, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina.
That’s 4-4, and the measure of success or failure for Kiffin’s first season will be measured by the result of the remaining 4 games. Lose to UCLA, Kentucky, or Ole Miss… ok, it’s not the end of the world. Lose to Vanderbilt… bar the doors to the athletic office.
I see 8-4 at best for the Vols (which would be a very good first year for Kiffin, actually) and 4-8 at worst.
by vineyarddawg on Jun 10, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
"Every serious Vols preseason prognostication shows a range of 7-9 wins"
You said 8-4.
Are you really quibbling about how we get there?
And, are you sure one of those losses you have penciled in couldn’t go the right way for the Vols – say South Carolina?
Well, in June, nothing's sure
Just one preseason injury to a key player could change the dynamic of the entire season. Spurrier has had past success in Knox-vegas, though, and that team had inferior talent to UT’s team, which won’t necessarily be the case this year.
And 8-4 was my best case scenario. I would say my “serious Vols preseason prognostication” at this point would be 5-7 or 6-6. I think UCLA will beat the Vols, and Ole Miss is a solid bet, too. (I remain unconvinced as to the staying power of Jevan Snead and the Reverend Nutt’s crew. They snuck up on people last year, which won’t happen again. At the same time, though, they’re still a solid team.) From there, it’s just a question of stumbling against Vandy, ‘Ucky, or having a bad day against Ohio, Memphis, or the can’t-pick-a-mascot-guys from the metropolitan Opelika area.
by vineyarddawg on Jun 10, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
"I don't think any SEC team can go ahead and pencil in a win against...Kentucky/Vandy"
Beg to differ. We haven’t lost to Kentucky in 25 years and we have only lost to Vandy once over the same period. We’ve had some pretty awful UT teams over that span. A few breaks had to go our way to get there, but that goes without saying, if you establish a record of dominance like that over a fellow SEC school.
But, for prognostication purposes, 95+% chance of winning based on recent history is a better bet than, say, if I picked GA to beat TN over the last 5 years, for example. (Yes, I know you won the four before that. And, you won last year. Just having a little fun.)
I’d be willing to bet a rack of ribs that TN does better than your 5-7 or 6-6 prediction. Is there a Governor-style bet for some equal value of Georgia product out there? And, that’s before “seeing how Lane coaches in a single ball game.”
(That’s a single bet, btw. This is, after all, still a recession.)
Kentucky
They haven’t beaten UT since the Nixon administration, I believe. We like to pencil that one in.
There is simply no element of persuasion in this article
Mr. King:
I ask the following three questions in the most respectful manner.
1) Are you an attorney?
2) Do you know the difference between assumption and inference?
3) Which did you use in this article?
Kind Regards,
KB
Fair questions
The answers are these:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. I don’t think I used a great deal of either.
That Lane Kiffin is 5-15 as a head coach is neither an assumption nor an inference; it is a fact. That Lane Kiffin’s behavior has been childish and an embarrassment is neither an assumption nor an inference; it is a description, one with which CornFromAJar appears to agree, based upon the lengthy excerpt from his posting quoted above.
As I believe I have made clear, both in the posting and in the comments, I am not offering Joe Namath-like guarantees that Lane Kiffin will fail; in fact, I agreed with CornFromAJar that we cannot know for certain what will happen. I simply believe the available evidence contains little that I would find encouraging if I were a Tennessee fan. I never said Lane Kiffin will not succeed; I said (as Holly correctly noted) that there simply is no basis for believing that he will.
I invited, and am pleased to have received, comments explaining why (other than wishful thinking) the Volunteer faithful should have faith, and I am grateful to memphispete for offering a thorough and thoughtful response to my posting. I will confess to being underwhelmed—-his father’s legendary status is immaterial to anyone who has heard the name Mike Shula (and I am not sure that Monte Kiffin has coached a down of college football during the lifetimes of any of the current crop of Volunteer players); the quality of Lane Kiffin’s service as Southern California’s offensive coordinator is very much open to debate—-but I credit him with a good faith attempt to answer my question in the spirit in which it was intended. (Please note that I have not been among those who called out Lane Kiffin at every turn, nor have I referred to him as “Junior” or “Lame Kiffin” or the like, and I have criticized the N.C.A.A. for the very notion of the “secondary violation.”)
Frankly, I agree with shadrach; this hire is baffling to anyone who appreciates (as I do) the tradition, resources, and fan support Tennessee has to offer a prospective coach. Maybe Lane Kiffin will turn out to be the second coming of Robert Neyland, but I have yet to see a convincing argument that he will be. In fact, I have barely seen an argument on his behalf; for the most part, the best defense Tennessee fans have been able to offer is, “Darned if we know, either, but, if y’all are talking about him this much, we must be back!” I have far too much respect for Tennessee fans (these mouth-breathing morons notwithstanding) to believe that they do not deserve better than a head coach who cannot be defended upon better grounds than these.
I am sorry that you found this posting unpersuasive, but that may have been because I was not attempting to persuade anyone of anything; I was citing what seem to me (and what seem to everyone who is not a Tennessee season ticket holder or a pundit trolling for page views) to be self-evident truths, of which I was asking to be disabused.
To his credit, memphispete has taken an honest stab at it, for which I thank him. If I’m not persuading you, kidbourbon, that’s fine; you persuade me. I think you’re going to be wishing you had Phillip Fulmer back by the midpoint of the 2009 season. You tell me why you’re not.
Go 'Dawgs!
Repeating this line over and over doesn't make it true
I never said Lane Kiffin will not succeed; I said (as Holly correctly noted) that there simply is no basis for believing that he will.
See Getoffmyvols’ comment above:
Its been kept a "secret" because things like increased practice efficiency and intensity, more discipline (knock on wood but no player arrests since Kiffin was hired) aren’t being fed to the casual observer. The non Tennessee fan isn’t going to click on a link about the impact the new zone blocking scheme is having on the running game or how the defensive ends are given much more liberty to be aggressive off the edge this year as part of Monte’s defensive scheme.
Also factor in that the word on the offense out of spring practice is it’s “simpler,” which was the approach taken when the Vols showed any spark whatsoever on that side of the ball.
Also, his DC/dad is considered one of the sharperst defensive minds in football, and has his own scheme named after him. That has to be worth something.
You could perhaps argue “little basis” or that his negatives have so far outweighed his positives. But no basis? You dug yourself into a hole. You’re wrong. ’He runs his mouth a lot" does not equal “no basis for success.”
I appreciate your work despite being alumni for the other guys, but this exercise in hyperbole was not up to the standards you’ve created for yourself here.
"Florida didnt win their first SEC title until 1991 and now they think they invented football."
-Ron Zook
Using my concession to back up your point is pretty disingenuous here.
My salient point is that there’s no basis for hollering on either side, that none of us has the slightest clue how this is all going to turn out, while you seem pretty certain you have all the answers.
________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.
by Holly Anderson on Jun 10, 2009 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Mr. T Kyle King, Esquire: Sir, what will it take to impress (Whelm) you?
Monte Kiffin may not have “coached a down of college football during the lifetimes of any of the current crop of Volunteer players”, but surely that does not disqualify him as an expert, if he has suitable experience elsewhere? Monte Kiffin’s defensive units at Tampa Bay finished in the top 10 in fewest points allowed and fewest yards allowed ten times in the past thirteen years, an NFL record (Wikipedia is the source, I’m in a hurry). Before his legendary NFL career (complete with Super Bowl success), he also won National Championships with Nebraska in 1970 & 1971. Surely, you are not suggesting that there is a more qualified Defensive Coordinator that UT/Kiffin should have hired?
I appreciate your positive comments, Mr. King, but I wish your rebuttal contained more facts. You say that the “quality of Lane Kiffin’s service as Southern California’s offensive coordinator is very much open to debate” and then you leave the debate podium. The list of his achievements is too long for a reply, so let me encourage you and your readers to visit this link and head to the USC Trojans section … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_Kiffin
Mr. King, I like Coach Richt. He is a gentleman and I appreciate the way he does his job & the way he lives out his faith. I do not yet like Mr. Kiffin’s style. If he loses, you are correct in saying that his style will be held against him in the court of law. But, his staff is solid and his pedigree isn’t as flimsy as our opponents would like to think. Respectfully,
Briefly, during my morning cup of coffee
As always, I appreciate your taking the time to reply. Please note that I try to facilitate the discussion rather than dominate the conversation; hence, I seldom respond to every comment, particularly when a posting sparks a good debate and I am able to get out of the way.
Headlines are written with an eye towards search engine optimization, rustytanton, so I’m sure you can appreciate why headlines are less subtle and more attention-grabbing than the postings beneath them. I am sure you will agree that the posting was much more nuanced in questioning Lane Kiffin’s resume.
I agree with you, memphispete, regarding the caliber of Monte Kiffin’s credentials. However, college football and the N.F.L. are two very different games; many a coach has been good at one without being good at the other. It is not unreasonable to wonder whether a man of Coach Kiffin pere’s advancing years will have trouble relating to current college athletes after such a long time away from campus. I doubt seriously whether the defense that worked (such as it did; the 1971 “Game of the Century” was a shootout) against Oklahoma four years before Coach Kiffin fils was born has much relevance in 2009. Besides, these all are arguments why Monte is qualified to be a defensive coordinator, not why Lane is qualified to be a head coach.
I did not mean to “leave the debate podium,” but, in fairness, I was responding to another commenter. Regarding Lane Kiffin’s tenure as offensive coordinator, the Wikipedia entry you cited notes that the Trojans’ offensive production dropped off from 49.1 points and 579 yards per game in 2005 to 30.5 points and 391 yards per game in 2006. While the author of the Wikipedia entry attributes this to a loss of offensive talent, he notes virtually in the same breath that this was during a period when Coach Kiffin was bringing in top-rated recruiting hauls on an annual basis.
If U.S.C. was that loaded with talent (and it was) and if U.S.C. was winning games so convincingly that the backups should have seen significant playing time (and they should have), then talent and experience are not excuses for such dramatic drop-offs. What explanation is there other than coaching?
Finally, Holly, I’m sorry you think I’m being disingenuous, but I don’t believe I have all the answers; I believe the large number of questions, and the strong likelihood that the answers to those questions will be unsatisfactory to you, makes this hire highly dubious.
I put this question to the Tennessee faithful: “Is this the guy you wanted?” Was this the hire you were pushing for while the job was vacant? Are you satisfied with “darned if I know” as a justification for a head coaching hire or do you believe the storied tradition and strong support boasted by Volunteer football deserve a proven commodity as a head coach?
Go 'Dawgs!
No, your post wasn't any more nuanced than the headline
I quote:
Absolutely nothing in Lane Kiffin’s resume, before his hiring or since, suggests that he is up to the task before him.
You glossed over several aforementioned factors that were inconvenient to the search engine-friendly point you were trying to make.
1) He has been a successful offensive coordinator at a major college program, and brings a proven pro style system to UT
2) He has surrounded himself with an experienced staff, including a defensive coordinator who is respected by most everyone in football at any level
3) By all signs, the players who are still there have bought in. The ones who didn’t have left, and they were mostly back-ups, head cases, and character/discipline issues.
4) By all signs, the offense will be simplified compared with last year’s disastrous West Coast experiment
5) By all accounts, he is running a tighter ship than Fulmer was, and that is borne out in the lack of player arrests since he started
6) The run game appeared much improved in spring practice
7) And yes, he has demonstrated he can recruit, which does count for something
8) And yes, the fan base is excited, which does count for something
We have more than a few reasons to believe he has a chance to be successful, and I believe you were aware of most or all of these factors when you wrote your post but neglected to mention most of them.
From a lot of writers, that would be no issue at all. I am not above writing flame bait, offseason filler, or search engine fodder on occasion, and believe there is definitely a place for it . However, I’ve come to expect more thoughtful work from you. That should be taken both as commentary on my respect for your previous work and my disappointment in this post. It’s beneath you.
"Florida didnt win their first SEC title until 1991 and now they think they invented football."
-Ron Zook
by rustytanton on Jun 10, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Will anyone (or all) of the UT fans...
…simply answer the questions Kyle posed?
I put this question to the Tennessee faithful: "Is this the guy you wanted?" Was this the hire you were pushing for while the job was vacant? Are you satisfied with "darned if I know" as a justification for a head coaching hire or do you believe the storied tradition and strong support boasted by Volunteer football deserve a proven commodity as a head coach?
Humor me and make believe for just a moment that Kyle posted only this paragraph initially and made no mention of Kiffin’s resume or it’s likelihood or not of success for the UT program. I am really interested to know how you feel as fans of your team after this hire. It’s not enough to shrug your shoulders and say, “Oh well, let hope this works out well. At least he has his dad and a good recruiter. And he sure does make some noise.” If it were really up to you, if you were in Hamilton’s shoes, if you had the budget available to you that the UT Athletics Dept. would provide for a new head coach hire, what would you do? Or without the hypothetical of being UT’s AD, are you ultimately happy with his decision?
by marktheshark on Jun 10, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Noooo, that isn't going to work either.
I put this question to the Tennessee faithful: "Is this the guy you wanted?" Was this the hire you were pushing for while the job was vacant?
And now we’re just swinging wild. Lane Kiffin being an unexpected hire is another reason he’ll flame out in year one? Really?
I’ll bite: No, but Kiffin reminds me a lot of the guy I was pushing for — Cincinnati’s Brian Kelly, another young, brash type (see: his refusal to shake Kragthorpe’s hand after winning because of a pregame spat).
Are you satisfied with "darned if I know" as a justification for a head coaching hire
We are moving deeper into the hyperbole jungle, campers. You really think our athletic director threw up his hands and tossed a dart at a wall full of photographs to make this hire? Really? I mean, I may have suggested in many a public forum that Mike Hamilton enjoys the romantic company of goats, and while I believe that to be entirely true, that doesn’t mean I think he got to this position of prominence by being bad at his job. This is the guy who hired Bruce Pearl. I’m not equating Kiffin with Pearl; I’m saying Hamilton likes ’em loud and rowdy, and in that context this hire does make sense.
or do you believe the storied tradition and strong support boasted by Volunteer football deserve a proven commodity as a head coach?
Oh, I see. You only have our best interests at heart. You’re after Kiffin not because it’s an easy headline and quick guaranteed pageviews, but because you’re concerned from our welfare. This statement is the college football equivalent of “Why do you hate America?”.
I refer you to my original comment: I haven’t seen anything in the intervening time to counter my summation of your argument: That Lane Kiffin will be a bad football coach because he’s a loudmouth. Not buying it, sir.
________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.
by Holly Anderson on Jun 10, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
So which is it?
This is the guy you wanted or not? I’m confused.
I can understand weighing the pros and cons after the fact (as kidbourbon did below), but if UGA was in the same boat, and Damon Evans hired Lane Kiffin, I don’t think I could honestly be happy with the hire. There’s a part of being a “faithful fan” that doesn’t include not taking a realistic look at the circumstances. And if Lane Kiffin was a part of those circumstances at UGA, I would be fuming. I agree with what Kyle said earlier about fans fretting over things they don’t like to admit, but I’d like to think I’m not one of those fans (I honestly don’t know how I’d react in this situation if it were UGA’s hire since UGA did not hire Kiffin).
Also, I believe Kyle was referring to the justification of “darned in I know” as the fans’, not Hamilton’s.
by marktheshark on Jun 10, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Quickly
Kyle,
Was it your argument that Kiffin will be a bad football coach because he’s a load mouth? If so, I missed it.
by marktheshark on Jun 10, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure I answered that right up top,
in the part where I said, “No, but Kiffin reminds me a lot of the guy I was pushing for”.
And now I’m being unrealistic by saying it’s too early to judge Kiffin as a good or poor hire? I think I’m being more pragmatic than anyone involved here, seeing as how we still haven’t seen him coach a football game.
________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.
by Holly Anderson on Jun 10, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll give you your pragmitism
and that’s admirable as a faithful fan of your team. It seems as if Kyle’s ultimate point (and the title of his post) is that he can’t say definitively that he’s going to be a good coach. You round out the argument by providing the other side: nor can we say he’ll be a bad coach.
by marktheshark on Jun 11, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
And upon that point . . .
. . . I believe it is fair to say we have reached consensus; where we differ is over whether the glass ought to be regarded as half-empty or half-full.
Go 'Dawgs!
Well, no.
I say the glass is entirely empty and waiting to be filled with football (it’s a big glass, OK??). But I’m done.
________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.
by Holly Anderson on Jun 12, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
A little (wikipedia) context
What changed between 2005 and 2006? What about these three players leaving:
White finished his USC career as the school’s all time rushing touchdowns leader with 52. He also finished with 3,159 yards and a 5.9 average per rush.
In 39 games at USC, Bush started only fourteen times. However, he finished tenth in NCAA Division I-A history with 6,541 all-purpose yards. He finished with 3,169 yards and 25 touchdowns on 433 carries (7.3 avg) and 1,301 yards with thirteen scores on 95 catches (13.7 avg). Bush returned 67 kickoffs for 1,522 yards and a touchdown, adding 559 yards and three scores on 44 punt returns (12.7 avg). He also completed one-of-three passes for a 52-yard touchdown
Leinart finished his college career with 807 completions on 1,245 attempts (64.8% completion percentage) for 10,693 yards and 99 touchdowns with just 23 interceptions. He is USC’s all-time leader in career touchdown passes and completion percentage, and is second at USC behind Palmer in completions and yardage. He averaged nearly 8.6 yards per attempt, and averaged only one interception every 54 attempts. He was 37–2 as a starter.
By his senior year, Leinart was essentially able to run the offense himself – he had leeway to audible on almost every play if he thought it would be better matched to what the defense was showing.
Highly ranked recruits or not, that was a once-in-a-while combination of offensive talent, to the extent that the 2005 offense was masking a defense that could most politely have been described as “transitional.” USC fans certainly had their share of frustrations with Kiffin and Sarkisian, especially for not calling to the strengths of their new starters, but a good portion of that lies at Pete Carroll’s feet also.
Those transitional numbers aren’t just on Kiffin, is what it boils down to.
I got a banning warning? wtf?
Was what I said that bad? Maybe I have been hanging around the Rivals boards too much.
Yes, you got a warning
You started out with message board snark and a little bit more profanity than we normally consider acceptable. I replied politely and publicly with a mild rejoinder and a gentle reminder.
You came back with a silly throwaway line that everyone uses with everyone else. I deleted it because it added nothing. Was it that bad? Not especially, but, in light of the cordial and substantive comments left by the likes of Holly, rustytanton, CornFromAJar, Getoffmyvols, and memphispete, I thought it warranted a warning.
I have no problem with snark when it is accompanied by substance, but, if all that’s being offered are tired old retreads from a Paul Finebaum joke book, nothing is being added to the conversation. This progression . . .
Commenter: [Snark]
Me: Watch it.
Commenter: [More snark]
Me: This is your warning.
Commenter: [Still more snark]
Me: You’re done.
. . . seems reasonable to me where there’s nothing but snark being contributed.
Add something to the conversation and you’re more than welcome. If it’s just message board fodder, well, that’s why we have message boards.
That said, the purpose of a warning is to get the person’s attention so that more drastic action is not required. I hope that clears up your confusion.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on Jun 10, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta agree
things like wt*? and B**** should be discouraged. Not saying it doesn’t happen a lot out there. Just wish not so much.
And, I like what I have read from BigBeefe on other boards, so no disrespect intended to the BB. He does bring good content.
Common ground, Mr. King?
We have lots of common ground, memphispete
We happen to disagree upon one (admittedly important) point, but that does not mean we do not agree on many others.
Likewise, I have no doubt of BigBeefe’s ability to bring good content. I’d just like to see it here.
Finally, like I told kidbourbon, there’s no need to be overly formal. “Kyle” will do fine.
Go 'Dawgs!
Good faith stab
Overdramatic Intro:
I met a very interesting person today. A time traveler. He had traveled all the way to December 2012, and was an avid college football fan. At first he seemed quite reasonable. He intelligently articulated clearly defined parameters for “success” vs. “failure” and then engagingly asked me whether I thought Lane Kiffin would be a success or a failure in his coaching stint at UT. Before I could answer, this time-traveling stranger got very hostile. He pulled out a loaded gun, pointed it right at my temple, and asked the question. Answer correctly, I live. Answer incorrectly, I die. Oh yeah, and he gave me three seconds to answer. I chose success. I felt like it gave me the best chance of, you know, not dying.
Proceeding to the mon-fiction Aisle:
Okay, so that story was fictional and we’ll never know whether I lived happily ever after or whether the janitor had to stay late and bring an extra mop. But the choice I gave in the story is the choice I would give if faced with that scenario in real life.
Why? Well here goes…..
We don’t know much about Lane Kiffin, but we know a little. Enough, I think, for this young attorney to reasonably infer that Kiffin is more likely to succeed as a coach than fail.
(1)
We know that Kiffin had great success as an offensive coordinator at USC. This is fact. It is not open for debate. But you, and every other Kiffin contrarian, and every other Kiffin’s contrarian’s cousin can barely contain yourselves right now. You are dying to toss out two counterpoints. Likely something along the lines of:
(a) We really don’t know what Kiffin’s role in that offense was. Was he only co-coordinator, remember? It isn’t clear whether he was calling the plays, running the practices, or doing any of that other important stuff.
(b) My brother’s six year old kid could have had success with an offense featuring Bush and Leinart.
My response to point (a) is that I don’t really know either. But it is much more reasonable to assume that Kiffin did something and wasn’t just Sarkisian’s sidekick. Carroll gave Kiffin the title for a reason, and it wasn’t just to help keep him around as long as possible (a la what UT is currently doing with Orgeron) because Kiffin was not yet a household name and — absent that title — his value on the coaching market would not have been off the charts.
My response to point (b) is that it is possible to not have success with an offense that includes two first round draft picks at the skill positions. Just ask Mark Richt.
(2)
Kiffin has a year and a quarter of NFL experience. And not just as a position coach or a coordinator, but as a head coach. The head coach being the main guy: running the practices, delegating to assistants, being the final decisionmaker….and all the rest of it. Sure, he didn’t have great success in the NFL. But he was not exactly dealt pocket aces either. The Raiders were 2-14 in 2006. In 2007, with Kiffin, they were 4-12. They were 1-4 when he got fired the next year. They ended up at 5-11….winning at roughly the same clip with Kiffin as without him. Did he turn the franchise around? No, he did not. But he did get two more wins in his first year than they got the previous year….the team did improve.
And on top of all that, how many examples of coaches failing in the pro’s but winning in college do we have to see before we all come to the collective conclusion that success at the NFL level is in no way relevant to success at the collegiate level. There are several examples that I won’t list because you already know them.
(3)
Probably because he did not have resounding success with the Raiders, and left under extremely weird circumstances, Kiffin has done everything in his power to ensure that the Vols become a successful program. He has put himself in a position to succeed. He brought in a legendary defensive coordinator. He brought in the best recruiter in the business. He brought in a stable of other very good assistant coaches — who may not be household names like the elder Kiffin and Orgeron — but who are, by all accounts, very good coaches.
(4)
He showed right at the outset that he does have some recruiting chops. If it is impossible to fail running an offense with Reggie Bush (but, of course, not Knowshon Moreno) as your tailback. Well then it will be pretty darn tough to fail running an offense with Bryce Brown as your tailback.
So, is he a great X’s and O’s coach? Honestly, I really don’t know. But for a guy who has had a had in a great offense before, has had experience running the show at the pro level, and who has enough sense to surround himself with the best coaches in the business….I think it is fair to see he isn’t stupid. Yeah, he pops off. But that doesn’t make him stupid. Hell, my moniker is kidbourbon, and I’m a damn attorney for god’s sake.
In view of the above, I respectfully conclude that Kiffin will succeed as the head coach of the University of Tennessee Volunteers. And let the record show that I would stake my life on that (if forced to).
KB
Mr. King
Does SB Nation not let us edit after we post? Nothing substantive, but I should have spell-checked. Oh well.
First of all, thanks for the response
Sorry I forgot to mention you when listing the Tennessee commenters; the omission was not intentional.
Secondly, the SB Nation comment function does not allow editing, even by site administrators. The theory is that, since a comment thread is a conversation, allowing posters to go back and edit is like allowing someone to go back and change what they said in a conversation. With respect to typos, I know this is annoying, but don’t worry; you’re not being graded on minor errors that slip through just because you’re writing a blog comment rather than a formal letter.
Finally, it’s “Kyle.” I appreciate the deference, but it’s not necessary. Nice job, by the way.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on Jun 10, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
You did drop my moniker
In your post at RTT. And I appreciated the kind words.
Keep it classy, Kyle.
We're judging football head coaching competence based on talk?
Well, to be fair, we’re judging him on talk and a 20-game coaching career in a different league with an owner who could charitably be called “mercurial”. I feel like I should note that Oakland both excelled before and after Kiffin’s tenure, but net coaching effect is a tricky thing and I’m not sure I’d put much stock in that unless talent didn’t change significantly.
So: Kiffin brings an ability to implement an effective college-level pro-style offense and knowledge on how to develop a successful college program. I submit the USC offenses and teams he was a part of as evidence. I also would like to note the use of college and not professional; I suspect this will raise a bit of a ruckus, but I also submit that college and the NFL are two different animals.
The question to me is then if Kiffin’s offense and organizational development methods he learned at USC will translate to Tennessee. To that I answer: we’ll have to find out. (I haven’t read Steele’s soothsaying yet, so I can’t speak to how the Vols will play this year.)
Now, might as well have a bit of fun:
I put this question to the Tennessee faithful: “Is this the guy you wanted?” Was this the hire you were pushing for while the job was vacant?
Nope – I was very vocally pushing for Brian Kelly, and I might’ve been the first person on the bandwagon – not sure on that though. You can find the post(s) and (numerous) comments at RTT to that effect. My reasons are in there.
Are you satisfied with “darned if I know” as a justification for a head coaching hire or do you believe the storied tradition and strong support boasted by Volunteer football deserve a proven commodity as a head coach?
Considering my justification for Kiffin’s hire does not consist of any of those words save “I” and maybe “if”, I’m not totally sure I understand the impetus behind the question. Unless you’re getting at “this guy’s young and unproven but I feel like he’s been acting like an idiot”, in which case we’ve leaped the realm between documented information and conjecture.
One positive thing I can say as a casual observer of Kiffin...
….is that nobody can accuse him of taking the easy road. He didn’t waltz into Knoxville shaking hands, kissing babies and wearing a creamsicle shirt. He raced in full speed with guns a blazin’ and mouth a spewin’ attacking every coach in the SEC not employed by the University of Tennessee. He even went after a few high schoolers, one high school and the citizens of an entire Florida city.
I commend the UT fans for having the courage, faith and loyalty to stand up for this guy. He surely has the “new sheriff in town” bit down. Time will tell if he can back up any of his actions, but I agree with UT fans that Knoxville did need some sort of jolt. I attended the Florida/Tennessee game last fall in Knoxville and alumni morale was poor, even before the initial kickoff. Hope rings eternal and Kiffin has given UT new hope. He does has some good assistants and he has recruited well. None of us know whether that will translate to victories on the field, but at least UT fans can be thankful that they won’t be subject to another year of the “same old story.”
Kiffin has an uphill road – that is the one he chose. He has supplied a ton of bulletin board material for his opponents. Personally, I am looking forward to September 19th in Gainesville……
I think we are all looking forward to that date
Even if UT fans are not so much expecting a W….the atmosphere will be incredible and I can assure you that the UT players will come to play. They may simply get outclasses in the end, but they will play until they keel over in exhaustion. The same could not be said the last couple years. And perhaps this should have been #5 on my list. Kiffin will get the players to play with a fire and determination that has been noticeably absent the last couple years.
For all I admit to not knowing about what's actually going to happen on the field,
I will say this: Kiffin is GREAT television.
________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.
by Holly Anderson on Jun 10, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Nervous?
Let’s talk about you guys for a second….
I live here in Athens, GA home of the Bulldawgs. Here in Dawgland the sentiments and quiet grumblings that started to murmur in 2000 at Rocky Top are slowly taking hold here. Look at a quick rundown of the facts:
*Richt is a great guy who never makes the verbal headlines, so was Fulmer-“Check”
*Richt is now the longest tenure SEC coach. Fulmer was the last-“Check.” That makes him on the hot seat by default.
*The familiar feeling of consistent let down of not winning more SEC titles or one National Championship-“Check.” The press touted last years team as a pre-season #1 that we now know was overrated.
*They suffer from a case of the “Gators” -As with Fulmer’s career, if you don’t beat Florida there goes the season. To make matters worse, GT seems to have gotten their groove on. It is getting bad enough that Richt is starting to cry about the venue as the excuse. It didn’t hurt Buck’s success in the late 70’s early 80’s, did it.
While I will agree that Tennessee could be one of the least of your problems this year, we will only get better. As stated above, there are plenty of reasons why the pressure is all on Richt this year against us, Florida, and GT. Good Luck….
Richt is not Fulmer
I think the primary difference between Mark Richt and The Great Pumpkin is a quality that will serve to keep Richt off the hot seat for many several at least a few years to come: people skills.
When you meet Mark Richt and talk to him, even for a minute or two, you come away thinking he’s a great guy. In his press conferences he has never yet, to my knowledge, cursed at a media person or told them to “shove it” or something like that. When Georgia loses a recruit, you never hear them say, “I just didn’t like/fit with the head coach.” No one at the athletic department has ever had to apologize for a Coach Richt outburst (or, at least, one that he didn’t apologize for almost immediately).
Mark Richt is a top-notch person and seems to try to run his program with the utmost class and character. Now, I will grant you that such qualities are not in high regard in much of the sporting world nowadays, even among many Georgia supporters. That M.O. does buy you a little bit of extra grace and understanding, however, when things turn sour in the short-term on the field.
People around these parts (at least, the ones who give the big money and the ones who are influenced by that money in the athletic department) will remember the 2 SEC championships he has won, which were 2 more than the program had won in the previous 20 years. That memory will fade over time, but it’s still vivid right now. In addition, the program is still maintaining the level of excellence Coach Richt established, even though no championships have been won in 3 years. Georgia is still an elite team (top-10 caliber perennially), and no team in the country really looks forward to having Georgia on their schedule. This is a place our program hasn’t consistently been in for many years, and despite the grumbling when we lose close games, I think TPTB appreciate that fact.
I’m not going to dispute the fact that, if Richt has 2 or 3 years that are subpar (i.e. less than 8 wins), he could be on the hot seat. As of right now, however, I’d say that’s nowhere near the case.
by vineyarddawg on Jun 11, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Coach Richt is a gentleman
But there are still rumblings because of last year’s disappointment. With Stafford (#1 pick in NFL Draft) and Moreno, UGA was supposed to be the USC Trojans of the SEC, similar to the Bush/Leinert combo. The Florida and GT records have been an issue as well.
With those records below, how many SEC and national championships does Georgia have in the last 4 years? And, how does that compare with expectations, given the talent-level?
Again, great man and good winning percentage (like Fulmer) but the seat for Richt is at least a little warm in Athens, whether it should or not.
Not even close
Mark Richt’s record against Georgia Tech is 7-1. No one was happy about last year’s meltdown against the Yellow Jackets, but an .875 winning percentage against your in-state rival is job security for anyone . . . unless your in-state rival is Vanderbilt.
There have been some seasons that failed to meet expectations (2004, 2008), but also seasons that exceeded expectations (2005, 2007). In terms of offensive explosiveness, I’d like to see how well Southern California did with a patchwork offensive line after losing two starting left tackles.
There may be some grumbling, but Willie Martinez’s seat isn’t even warm yet, much less his boss’s. I will grant that Mark Richt has gone from being the most secure coach in the league to the second most secure coach in the league (behind Urban Meyer), but he isn’t anywhere near having to shake up his staff, much less having to worry about his job. Total amount of grousing you’re hearing from anyone with any influence: zero.
Go 'Dawgs!
Richt vs. Fulmer
Fulmer had 2 losing seasons in his last 4 at UT.
Richt’s last 4 seasons were 10-3, 11-2, 9-4 and 10-3.
Richt has won 10 or more games in 6 of his last 7 seasons at UGA.
Uncheck.
Fulmer Vs. Richt
Overall win percentage for Fulmer: .745 or 152-52
Overall win percentage for Richt: .789 or 72-19
So, basically, he is .044 away from being fired if you look at the stats. As far as the original comments, I am just repeating what I am hearing hear in sunny Athens from your comrads……Don’t shoot the messenger. You might have heard such words as, “unemotional,” or “soft” on his coaches when they are not getting it done.
GO VOLS!
I don't doubt that this is what you're hearing . . .
. . . which is why I said you were hearing no grousing from anyone with any influence.
Yeah, some rank and file fans are disgruntled; many of these are the same guys who haven’t liked any play call since 1988 because someone other than Vince Dooley was standing on the sideline. No one who’s stroking a check large enough to be noticed even has making Mark Richt move along on his radar screen. If you mentioned getting rid of Coach Richt in Butts-Mehre Heritage Hall, the response would be laughter. It’s simply not a serious position. Heck, getting rid of Willie Martinez (which I think ought to be up for discussion) isn’t even up for discussion. This conversation is in impeach-President-Obama territory; there may be guys who want to do it, but it’s nowhere near being on the table for discussion.
The difference in Phillip Fulmer’s and Mark Richt’s winning percentages reveals the problems of averaging. Coach Fulmer’s later teams were in decline. Coach Richt’s are not. Six straight senior classes have left Athens with at least 40 career victories. The worst that can be said of Coach Richt is that he has held the line while Florida has improved.
Also, Coach Richt’s assistant coaching hires (with the arguable elevation of Willie Martinez) all have been upgrades. The promotion of Mike Bobo and the addition of Tony Ball and Stacy Searels all have been steps forward, as opposed to the problems that arose with Coach Fulmer’s offensive coaches not named David Cutcliffe. The situations simply are not remotely analogous; you’re comparing apples to Big Oranges.
Go 'Dawgs!
How dare you let actual facts . . .
get in the way of a schadenfreude -induced simile, skigator. Why do you hate America, sir?
One other point and I will be satisfied in waiting until October 10th.
In those four years that Fulmer had two loosing seasons, Richt is .500 against the Vols.
I think . . .
what you’re saying is that in Fulmer’s downward-sliding stage Mark Richt was only 2-2 against him. If I am correct, I have to ask: so what? He’s also .500 against Florida in seasons in which his teams finish in the top 3 in the final polls (2002 and 2007) and .500 in years in which Snoop Dogg performs at the Grammy’s. Actually I made that last one up but it’s probably equally statistically significant compared to the other two.
True
During those same four seasons, Mark Richt also was 38-10 against everyone else, including, inter alia, 3-1 against Auburn, 3-1 against Georgia Tech, 2-0 against L.S.U., 1-0 in S.E.C. championship games, and 3-1 in bowl games.
Go 'Dawgs!
Re: Monte Kiffin...what's he got to do with it really?
I honestly don’t get why Vol fans insist on pivoting the conversation to Kiffin’s father. The defense wasn’t broken to start with. The Vol Defense was #1 in yards allowed and #3 in points allowed. Monte isn’t going to improve that group because they were already good.
ALL improvement must come from the offense.
Kiffin has only served as an OC for two years. In reality he was co-offensive coordinator for USC in ‘06 really only flying solo in ’05. The talent assembled at USC in ’05 would allow for 13 year old PS3 guru to do fairly well. Although the 13 year old wouldn’t have had Bush on the sidelines for the game winner.
If he had a different last name would he have the job? No. He’s not there on resume or merit. I’m thrilled with the hire personally.
But I’m a Dawg Fan. If they wanted to scare me, they would’ve hired Butch Davis or Brian Kelly.
by Paulwesterdawg on Jun 12, 2009 10:05 AM EDT reply actions
Better comparison
In Richt’s 8 year tenure at UGA, he is 82-22 (.788)
In Fulmer’s first 8 years at UT, he was 76-14 (.844)
Since Fulmer’s record over his final 9 years dropped his overall winning percentage to .745, it is evident that he struggled after his first 8 years. If Richt does the same, I agree he will be on the chopping block. But that remains to be seen.
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