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Could Big Ten Expansion Force the SEC to Bring In a New School?

Big Ten expansion talk is all the rage, even here in SEC country, and, while the Notre Dame Fighting Irish remain atop the list despite being obviously unattainable and the Pittsburgh Panthers make the most sense, much attention is being paid to the apparently interested Missouri Tigers, with respect to whom Big Ten aficionados not only have an idea, they have a plan.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that happens. Short of the Golden Domers climbing down from their high horse (which isn’t going to happen now that the arrival of Brian Kelly has ensured Notre Dame’s inevitable return to relevance competence dominance), conference expansion is a zero-sum game; if the Big Ten increases from eleven teams to twelve by poaching Mizzou, the Big 12 decreases from twelve teams to eleven. The Big 12 is going to need a new team.

Maybe it’s just the traditionalist in me, but it seems to me that there can be only one choice for Big 12 expansion should Missouri bolt for browner pastures. The Arkansas Razorbacks have a longstanding rivalry with the Texas Longhorns, currently have a series going with the Texas A&M Aggies, and have deep Southwest Conference roots. Turnabout is fair play, so a Big Ten that includes Missouri could mean a Southeastern Conference sans Arkansas.

If the first domino falls, the line could topple all the way to the SEC’s doorstep, raising the question . . . where would the SEC turn if it had to replace the Hogs? The options, it would seem, are these, in no particular order:

Star-divide

Louisville Cardinals: U. of L. shares an in-state rivalry with the Kentucky Wildcats and just hired longtime SEC defensive coordinator Charlie Strong. The ‘Ville would bolster the league’s basketball reputation but the Cardinals have been only intermittently good at football. Still, as a current member of an automatic BCS-qualifying conference, Louisville would have to get a look, although it’s too bad the Cards would be brought in to replace Arkansas, because a series between Bobby "Pignocchio" Petrino’s current and former schools would be fun to watch.

South Florida Bulls: I’m not saying they deserve it, but any number of SEC coaches would love another annual opportunity to travel to the recruiting hotbed of the Sunshine State. Tampa is an attractive market and USF has been consistently respectable (albeit no more than that) since making the jump to the Big East. You’d have to think the Florida Gators would scream and howl at having to add an in-state conference rival to their existing slate, though. This brings us to . . .

Florida St. Seminoles: Let’s not mince words here. If you were an SEC football fan in 1991, you thought Bobby Bowden ducked the SEC in order to pad FSU’s schedule with ACC games. It’s time to atone for that gutless decision now that the Jimbo Fisher era is underway. This would make great sense for the Gators, whose season-ender against the ‘Noles would count as a conference game, although it likely would increase the pressure on the Saurians to schedule the Miami Hurricanes more frequently. Regular trips to Tallahassee by the Georgia Bulldogs would please the conspiracy theorists among the Red and Black fan base, who would wonder regularly whether Mark Richt would just stay put once he got back to his old stomping grounds. While we’re on the subject of in-state out-of-conference rivals, I suppose I should mention . . .

Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets: I would be 100 per cent opposed to this idea, but you’d have to admit it makes sense. The Engineers played in the SEC for many years and were a part of some of the league’s great rivalries at one time. The Ramblin’ Wreck left the conference at the tail end of the Bobby Dodd era and had their efforts to rejoin the league rebuffed, so both sides might be lukewarm on a reconciliation. After both of this year’s ACC division champions fell to middling SEC East outfits that came into their battles for local bragging rights sporting 6-5 ledgers, it’s doubtful whether the Orange Bowl-bound Golden Tornado would want to trade a shot at a big-money bowl in the soft ACC for a lower spot in the league pecking order. In theory, Georgia Tech could enjoy home town advantage in an SEC championship game, but, honestly, that’s not much of a risk.

Clemson Tigers: Admittedly, I’m biased, but this option makes the most sense to me. The Country Gentlemen are comfortably within the SEC’s geographic footprint and share longstanding rivalries with the ‘Dawgs and the South Carolina Gamecocks. The Fort Hill Felines also share a common heritage with several other SEC schools which would make league games intriguing: Walter Riggs and John Heisman established strong ties between Clemson and the Auburn Tigers; the Alabama Crimson Tide have produced numerous coaches for the Orange and Purple, including Frank Howard, Danny Ford, and current skipper Dabo Swinney; Charley Pell landed both Clemson and Florida on probation; the LSU Tigers could host the Country Gentlemen in Death Valley before traveling to face them in Death Valley. Culturally, the Tiger faithful are a much more comfortable fit with the rabid fans of the Southeastern Conference than with the Big Ten wannabes of the Atlantic Coast Conference and an SEC association certainly wouldn’t hurt the proud Clemson baseball program. Should we be willing to trade the Razorbacks for the Tigers? Ken Hatfield certainly was, and he was an Arkansas alum.

If it were up to me, the Big Ten would add Missouri, the Big 12 would add Arkansas, the SEC would add Clemson, and the ACC would . . . actually, I don’t care what the ACC does. I say let’s ship the Hogs back to their old stomping grounds, move the Tennessee Volunteers over from the SEC East to the SEC West (where the Vols properly belong, given their natural rivalries with Alabama and Auburn), add Clemson to the SEC East, and have at it.

Go ‘Dawgs!

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I'm in agreement with you on adding Clemson...

but I think the argument for shipping Tennessee to the west would be a hard one to make. Knoxville is 180 miles east of Nashville…logical reasoning in the whole East/West thing would have to point to Vanderbilt being swapped before UT (however, I am aware the Auburn is farther east than Nashville).

I think rather than open that can of worms and having to find a team to move from the east, the SEC would be better served to add Florida State into the west. Florida State and Alabama have very interesting connections and could quickly become a good rivalry. The only issue this would really create would be preventing Florida and LSU from annually playing one another, since the league would almost certainly move to having UF and FSU face off each year.

by hailtogeorgia on Dec 16, 2009 2:16 PM EST reply actions  

That would console me...

for missing out on my Clempson-Dawgs Peach-Fil-A Bowl. Damn, but that would have been a fine game, although I’d have pulled my hair out in tufts watching CJ Spiller and Jacoby Ford beat our secondary deep.

by opsomath on Dec 16, 2009 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

It sucks for Auburn that because of getting put in the “SEC West,” they had to stop playing Florida and Tennessee every year. That sounds far more interesting than playing Arkansas annually. And Auburn had to stop playing Georgia Tech annually, though I’m not sure if that had anything to do with it and am not interested enough to do any research on the topic. I kind of like the idea of adding my old hometown megadork Georgia Tech. They were a charter member of the SEC (I think I once heard) before they idiotically went to some “Metro” crap which failed. FSU was an upstart still playing Millsaps, Mercer, Ogelthorpe and Lambuth. And Louisville and South Florida?!? No way! Why don’t we just go ahead and add DeKalb Freaking Community College?

by Auburn '07 in Manhattan on Dec 16, 2009 2:31 PM EST reply actions  

What about Texas Christian?

They’d be a team in the west so they could easily replace Arkansas without a bunch of shuffling around. While their basketball history wouldn’t be as rich, Arkansas isn’t exactly a powerhouse right now and I’d argue their football teams are currently fairly comparable. The one thing TCU lacks compared to Arkansas is the fanbase.

The big bonus, however, would be SEC teams getting to play in Texas regularly. You can’t tell me that LSU wouldn’t be foaming at the mouth to get a game in Dallas every two years for recruiting purposes.

Of course, we could also go all-out and offer Texas or A&M.

by FisheriesDawg on Dec 16, 2009 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

I know it ruins all the fun of your speculation...

But I think that TCU would make a stronger push for the spot vacated by Missouri’s departure, should that come to pass. TCU is also an old SWC member, and would seem to me to be a better candidate to fill the void than Arkansas. Also, TCU has compelling more reasons than Arkansas to drop its current conference. That being said, I would support a Clemson-for-Arkansas swap wholeheartedly.

"If I had eight hours to cut down a tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my axe." -Abraham Lincoln

by Tree Dawg Knight on Dec 16, 2009 3:12 PM EST reply actions  

I agree with TDK...

While having Clemson in the SEC would be awesome, I think if Mizzou eventually makes the jump to the Big 11 then it would make the most sense to shuffle Oklahoma State to the Big 12 North and add TCU into the Big 12 South.

by Texan_Dawg on Dec 16, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

If Missouri goes..

and I’m the Big 12, I use this time to kick out Baylor and replace them with TCU, which should of happened years ago. I like the Clemson addition, but they’d have to find a way to balance the powerhouses by shipping one (ala Tenn) to the west, which is also fine by me.

by JRod1229 on Dec 16, 2009 3:39 PM EST reply actions  

Good work on the column

This was obviously a very fun and interesting story you worked on today. You pose some very intriguing scenarios. I love the Clemson for Arkansas idea. Clemson really is an SEC type environment. The only fans louder and/or more obnoxious are LSU fans (coincidentally Tigers from Death Valley.) However, the SEC would have a tough time trying to sell re-alignment to the other member schools.

I personally would like to see Tech in the SEC, but they’ll never do it. They realize they’ll be a small fish in a big pond and they’ll never regularly compete for titles behind UA, UF, LSU, UGA, Auburn, and on and on . . .

Bottom line is that the SEC has to make a long-term decision and not one that tries to take advantage of the current state of college football.

by HaroldWayneJenkins on Dec 16, 2009 4:04 PM EST reply actions  

Don't add Clemson (I hate Clemson. Yes, I borrowed that from you and I like it)

Personally, I think Kentucky would be a better candidate to move to the West than would Tennessee. Of course, that would deprive them of the next nine unsuccessful chances to beat the Gamecocks that they think they’re better than, but I digress.

The point is that we don’t want to add Clemson to the SEC. (I hate Clemson.) Alabama gives us enough recruiting violations as it is without the Tigers contributing to the problem. And whether we want to admit it or not, we already have plenty of rednecks among the conference’s fan base without adding Moo U.

No thanks on Clemson. (I hate Clemson.) The other candidates I could learn to accept.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Dec 16, 2009 5:18 PM EST reply actions  

I think we should shoot for Notre Dame.

Leaving insightful football commentary and analysis to other people since 2006.

by wwcmrd? on Dec 16, 2009 5:50 PM EST reply actions  

Go ahead and build the super conference...

Idea I had back in college:
In the East – ship out Vandy and Kentucky. Bring in Clemson and GA Tech.
In the West – ship out Arkansas and bring in FSU

Look at the long time rivalries that now become conference games:
UGA v Clemson
UGA v GA Tech
UF v FSU
SC v Clemson
GA Tech v Bama
GA Tech V Auburn

Assuming FSU returns to glory and either Clemson or GA Tech or both remain relevant, it becomes very hard to argue against the winner of this conference being named the automatic BCS title game contender.

by DawginOR on Dec 16, 2009 6:02 PM EST reply actions  

But UK and Vandy are charter members...

"Hollywood made a movie of my life. The film had me proposing to my wife on the football field. I would never misuse a football field that way." -Crazy Legs Hirsch

by Stuck in the Plains on Dec 16, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Understood, but so were Tulane, Sewanee, and Tech.

Given that this is a farsical discussion, I am allowed to divest myself of the concern for other schools’ feelings.

by DawginOR on Dec 16, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Besides, after 20 years,

Arkansas just feels right. It’s rednecky, with dubious academics and good athletics.

"Hollywood made a movie of my life. The film had me proposing to my wife on the football field. I would never misuse a football field that way." -Crazy Legs Hirsch

by Stuck in the Plains on Dec 16, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I get it, I do...I wouldn't want to play Arkansas over the next few years, either.

If y’all want to see all these games, each school has four non-conference games. Use them. I don’t want to see Arkansas go. I’d prefer to lose to a conference full of great teams than win in a conference of a couple “great” teams. If this does happen, they’d just better let us keep our ARvLSU game and the end of each year. You can’t split up the boot.

by daking001 on Dec 17, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

The West should get Vandy...

If the hogs are jettisoned (and Tech/Clemson are added), there’s no reason that the East should get both UK and Vandy. Each divisional big boy should have the benefit of guaranteed wins a lighter game.

"Hollywood made a movie of my life. The film had me proposing to my wife on the football field. I would never misuse a football field that way." -Crazy Legs Hirsch

by Stuck in the Plains on Dec 16, 2009 6:02 PM EST reply actions  

They do get to play Mississippi State

I always understood that to be the deal.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Dec 16, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Mississippi State has actually made it to...

…the title game a time or two, so don’t you mean Ole Miss?

by Nico2.0 on Dec 17, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Seriously though...

…three teams in the East have never even sniffed the title game, while only one hasn’t made it in the west. We’d do better to move one of the softies over the West if Tech or Clemson or FSU joined.

by Nico2.0 on Dec 17, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

... on the other hand

Those three teams from the east that have made it to the championship game over 18 championship games have emerged victorious over whoever represents the west a in comfortable majority (11) of the occasions.

by NCT on Dec 20, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

What the hell?

Even when I try to edit before posting…

The three teams from the east that have made it to the 18 championship games have emerged victorious over whoever represented the west in a comfortable majority (11) of those games. Thats about two out of every three tries, yes?

Does Arkansas’s having made it to the championship game demonstrate west’s strength, or does its losing in every attempt show the west’s weakness?

by NCT on Dec 20, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not just replace Arkansas with Memphis?

What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.

-Hank Hill

by Zoltar on Dec 16, 2009 6:04 PM EST reply actions  

I seem to recall they were wanting to move to a better conference anyway.

What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.

-Hank Hill

by Zoltar on Dec 16, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Because we don't need that bunch ...

… of basketball-dominating probation monkeys. They don’t even come close to fitting the profile of the conference.

by RJohn on Dec 16, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Alabama vs. Memphis?

Because Memphis has been such a great town for the University of Alabama, and with Dubose now at Memphis… Something just sets my teeth on edge about that one.

Just because I'm an occasional to frequent troll, doesn't mean I lack a heart or don't have a point. Rocky Top Talk blog ban: I did it for teh lulz.

by Anarchon on Dec 17, 2009 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

We might care what the ACC does ...

… because if I’m the ACC and I want to give a big f-you to the SEC, I respond to the poaching of either Florida State or Clemson by making a hard-core offer to South Carolina.

SC might not be the best fit for the ACC, but I could see it just from the perspective of being jerks.

And then we’re back to square one and have to find another team to add. I have no interest in having Louisville in the SEC, and even less interest in South Florida.

by RJohn on Dec 16, 2009 6:18 PM EST reply actions  

I think so. If we picked off an ACC team like Clemson or FSU, then they would pick off S.C. If we picked off a Big East team, then they could pick off Kentucky for the same reasons for them that Kyle listed for Louisville. Those conferences need to maintain their numbers too. Then we’re stuck with eleven again. The SEC would probably be better off replacing Ark in the west and leaving the east alone.

by mbrd71 on Dec 16, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure South Carolina goes back to the ACC

When that possibility was floated back when the ACC was expanding last time, the reaction was fairly lukewarm. Old-school fans like it, but people like myself who largely remember South Carolina as an independent or SEC school are happy where we are.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Dec 16, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Besides, I’m sure feelings were hurt when the Gamecocks quit the ACC once they got tired of carrying the conference in basketball.

I’m not entirely joking.

by NCT on Dec 17, 2009 1:17 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Um, the ACC can have Scu.

They do not belong in the SEC and never have. The SEC is for people who are elite at SOMETHING, ANYTHING, and Scu is barely mediocre at most things.

This could be a great opportunity for us to rid ourselves of the albatross of the state to our East and add some schools that would provide something tangible.

by Fred Pen on Dec 17, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

My first thought was USF...

but the more I thought about it, Clemson’s the much more logical poach, and then the ACC would pick up the Bulls.

And the Big East would be left with, oh, I don’t know, Temple.

by CAJason80 on Dec 16, 2009 6:20 PM EST reply actions  

Right . . .

. . . it would all roll downhill. South Carolina would never leave the SEC, particularly if Clemson was in the SEC instead of the ACC. The ACC would be free to snag whichever Big East team it likes best. Hey, it ain’t like it hasn’t happened before.

The ACC stealing one of our teams is about as likely as an ACC fan stealing one of our girls.

T-3rd SEC East > ACC Champs

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Dec 16, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Alternatively

The Big East uses the opportunity to snatch BC back where it belongs (splitting off the schools that don’t play Big East football to form a nice nine-team league), and the ACC just lives with being at ten teams.

by drothgery on Dec 17, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually, that's the best possible fallout for the Big East that I could see from Big Ten expansion...

… even better than SU to the Big Ten. Let’s do that.

Mizzou to the Big Ten.
Arkansas to the Big 12.
Clemson (or some non-BC ACC team) to the SEC.
And BC to the Big East, which splits.

by drothgery on Dec 17, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions  

After going through all that effort ...

… to get a championship game, the ACC’s not going to give it up without a fight.

Even though the ACC Championship Game has been an unmitigated festival of fail.

by RJohn on Dec 17, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

No way on USF...

…from “Never had a team to the SEC in less than a decade and a half?”

by Nico2.0 on Dec 17, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

This is how it should have been arranged in the first place, anyway.

I have no idea how Arkansas came to be placed in the SEC in the first place… I mean, were we looking to hand out some charity when the SWC dissolved?

Clemson should have been in the SEC since 1992, plain and simple. And yes, Tennessee should have been placed in the West at that time, too.

by vineyarddawg on Dec 16, 2009 7:23 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, it really does make sense

SEC East:
Clemson
Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
South Carolina
Vanderbilt

SEC West:
Alabama
Auburn
LSU
Ole Miss
Mississippi State
Tennessee

Permanent interdivisional rivalries:
Georgia-Auburn
Tennessee-Vanderbilt
Florida-LSU
Mississippi State-South Carolina
Kentucky-Ole Miss
Alabama-Clemson

In the words of Wings, “What’s wrong with that? I’d like to know.”

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Dec 16, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

well, that would put 4 perrenial powers in the west and only 2 in the east.

What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.

-Hank Hill

by Zoltar on Dec 17, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I declare this to be...

… the most perfect SEC configuration that is possible to create.

by vineyarddawg on Dec 17, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd make UT/UK a permanent rivalry

And let Vandy take Ole Miss. Vandy already has a permanent rivalry with Ole Miss, and UT/UK is a bigger deal than UT/Vandy.

I do have one question though (keep in mind, I’m speaking out of ignorance). What traditional rivalries do Georgia have in the East other than Florida? If y’all moved to the West, you could keep Florida every year (although LSU would lose them). Would you lose anyone else that’s big? Because we would lose either UK or Vandy, plus we would lose Florida (which is non-traditional but obviously heated). I wouldn’t mind regaining the old rivalries with Auburn and Ole Miss (despite being too young to remember them, I’m a traditionalist), but most of the under 40 set would much rather keep Florida than regain Auburn/Ole Miss.

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 17, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Tennessee's not a traditional rival ...

… but it is a border state, and it’s become a big deal in the division era. South Carolina, there’s a long history there, but it’s incredibly one-sided, and I’m not sure anyone would be sad to see them go. It’s a pain in the a** playing them early, because they usually fade toward the end of the season, and it’s extremely difficult to recover the season in the rare years we do lose to them.

Kentucky and Vandy, there’s not really anything there, but it would suck to lose them as easier games. Sub Georgia for Arkansas and the West becomes a real beast, without much in the way of easy games. Georgia would be playing Florida, LSU, Bama and Auburn every year — there’s no one in the SEC that has to do that right now, because Florida and LSU play each other.

Don’t wanna sound like we’re ducking competition, but that would be seriously unbalanced.

by RJohn on Dec 17, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Kentucky wasn't too easy for Georgia this year

First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...

by btcoop71 on Dec 18, 2009 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the insights, Incipient_Senescence

You were honest enough to admit your ignorance about Georgia’s rivalries, so I will be honest enough to admit my ignorance about Tennessee’s. I had assumed Vanderbilt would be the bigger deal since the Commodores are in-state and have beaten the Volunteers more recently than the Wildcats. My mistake.

Moving Georgia would be a bad idea, both for the competitive imbalance RJohn rightly notes and for the breakup of several longstanding series. Prior to the advent of the seven-game SEC schedule in the late 1980s, the Bulldogs annually played Clemson, Georgia Tech, and South Carolina out-of-conference. If the Country Gentlemen were added to the league, the Red and Black would want to play both Palmetto State schools, in addition to the Gators.

Stuck in the Plains makes a good point, as well, though, so why don’t we try reshuffling the divisions this way:

SEC East:
Clemson
Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
South Carolina
Tennessee

SEC West:
Alabama
Auburn
LSU
Ole Miss
Mississippi State
Vanderbilt

Permanent interdivisional rivalries:
Georgia-Auburn
Alabama-Tennessee
Kentucky-Vanderbilt
Mississippi State-South Carolina
Florida-Ole Miss
Clemson-LSU

That divisional split makes a good deal of geographic sense, neither division is noticeably more topheavy than the other, and (while all of the permanent interdivisional rivalries except Georgia-Auburn and Alabama-Tennessee are negotiable) there’s something to be said for that largely level set of annual games across the divide.

Granted, it looks like a mismatch between the Gators and the Rebels, but the Saurians have struggled in the Magnolia State for the last 20 years and Florida-Louisiana State looked like at least as large a mismatch for much of the 1990s. Trips to the Sunshine State every other autumn could boost Mississippi’s recruiting pretty quickly.

You can’t tell me it wouldn’t be fun for Clemson to play LSU every year. Those are two rabid fan bases, and I’d be able to make the same joke in “Don’t Bet On It!” every year: “I’m picking the Tigers . . . you know, the ones from Death Valley . . . you know, the ones who wear purple . . .”

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Dec 17, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Alright. Thanks

I didn’t realize the history you had with Carolina. I did know about the history with Clemson and GT. So that would cause a loss of a major rivalry if you moved over. Of course, if it were someone else (say, Miami or Virginia Tech) that joined, you’d only lose one instead of two, but that’s still not something you want to do. And the competitive imbalance would be just as rough with Tennessee moving over as with Georgia. Arguably rougher, actually, because UT is historically stronger (but only just. UGA is #3 all-time in SEC win%, correct?). Although we’d be keeping UK instead of Florida, which would make things a little easier.

I would immediately thought that moving Vandy over makes the West much easier (Vandy and Mississippi State), but that’s before I took into account that Kentucky and South Carolina have both been uncharacteristically strong lately. If they settle out, things even up quite a bit. Bama and LSU match up evenly with Florida and UT, and Georgia and Auburn are notoriously well-matched. The East is still tougher, because the new team (Clemson, VT, Miami, whatever) is bound to be better than Ole Miss.

And on that subject, on your proposal, even though it’d be a lot of fun to have Clemson play LSU, you should let Florida and LSU keep their rivalry. Clemson/whoever can have Ole Miss, and I’d call it roughly even.

On the UT vs. UK/Vandy thing, it’s really an easy mistake to make. There may actually be disagreement among UT fans as to which is a bigger rival. Both UK and Vandy consider us their biggest rival, and we don’t really consider them as much of anything. However, UT has a lot of bad blood towards Kentucky in basketball, so it carries over a bit, making that rivalry a bit stronger.

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 17, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

The SWC lasted a few years after Arkansas left.

by NCT on Dec 17, 2009 1:22 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Just a few

It was the Big 12 thing that killed them for good, I think. Sucks for TCU.

by CraigT on Dec 17, 2009 7:28 AM EST up reply actions  

They'd actually be able to fill up their stadium...

…Granted…it’d be with other teams’ fans, but we’d all get a trip to Miami every few years and they’d get the revenue.

by Nico2.0 on Dec 17, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope that it would work out where Arkansas went to the Big 12

and the SEC was able to kick Scu out and add Clemson and Gtu.

Clemson is a much better fit for the SEC than Scu, and it would give Scu the opportunity to win a conference championship in something.

Since the addition of Arkansas and Scu in Scu has done absolutely nothing. Nothing. Arkansas football has been to the title game twice, won the NCAA basketball tourney in ’94 and has won 149,372(approximately) track titles.

It has been twenty years, and the addition of Scu has provided nothing. They were only a fill-in when FSU whimped out and went to the ACC, and they need to go somewhere else.

I would hate to lose Arkansas, because geographically strange, they have provided quite a bit to the SEC and they have Wal Mart/Tyson money and the rare sitting president as alum of a member school.

Scu has none of that. They are certainly not a bastion of academic excellence either.

I say subtract Scu and Arkansas and add Gtu and Clemson.

by Fred Pen on Dec 17, 2009 11:04 AM EST reply actions  

Missouri won’t be leaving the Big 12 for a couple of reasons. First, our biggest (and really only) rivals are the Kansas Jayhawks. It’s the oldest college football rivalry west of the Mississippi and is the second oldest in the entire country. We’ve been trying to kill each other since before the Civil War and generally it has been a lot of fun, so why ruin the party now? Second, the only reason we are currently an above-average football program is because we are plugged into the Texas pipeline, not for black gold, but for the four to five star college recruits that seem to flow out of Texas to the rest of the Big 12 because those same recruits want to get back at the Texas schools that rejected or ignored them.

by cleveland.brown on Dec 17, 2009 7:46 PM EST reply actions  

Big 10 expansion

The Big 10 conference is the only conference to have all members (11) rated as Tier I academic institutions (ranked in the top 80 nationally). Missouri doesn’t make the grade, Notre Dame and Pitt do. As a comparison, the SEC has three; Florida, Georgia, and Vanderbilt. This will cause a war and I don’t mean it to, I’m just stating the facts. Either get the right school to join the Big 10 Conference or don’t expand.

by mbsmith91 on Dec 17, 2009 8:15 PM EST reply actions  

Tier I

I’m pretty sure they cut off the first tier at 50. Good try, though.

The Ohio State University has never denied admission to any applicant. Ever. Fact.
Michigan State University denies admission to 11 applicants per year. Fact.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Dec 18, 2009 2:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm biased (my parents are grads)...

…but I like the Louisville option. They would go in the West, which makes sense geographically. They are natural rivals with Kentucky, so that’s pretty cool. They would make the conference better in basketball, which is always a plus. They have a strong fanbase that travels well. And they have a revivable football program.

Georgia Tech has all of this going for them, plus the history factor, so I guess they beat Louisville head to thead if it came down to choosing between the two. Fwiw, though, I like both of those options better than Clemson. Clemson = yuck.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Dec 17, 2009 10:36 PM EST reply actions  

plus, how many “tigers” can we take?

What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.

-Hank Hill

by Zoltar on Dec 17, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I get it, I really do. I wouldn't want to play AR over the next few years, either.

If AR does get taken in by the BIG 12, then I guess I don’t really care what happens to the SEC after that. But if it doesn’t andI y’all still want to see all these games proposed in these posts, each school has four non-conference games. Use them. I don’t want to see Arkansas go. (Hogs fan if you haven’t figured it out.) I’d prefer to lose to a conference full of great teams than win in a conference of a couple “great” teams. If this does happen, they’d just better let us keep our AR v LSU game and the end of each year. You can’t split up the boot.

by daking001 on Dec 17, 2009 11:22 PM EST reply actions  

Don't take it personally

Arkansas just never made geographic sense. The Razorbacks haven’t been terrible, although I’d be less afraid of playing the Hogs on an annual basis than any other current Western Division team except Mississippi State. (In my mind, Arkansas and Ole Miss essentially are a wash in terms of fear factor, but we have considerable history with the Rebels, who are longstanding SEC members.) You simply can’t go from the Southwest Conference to the Southeastern Conference and have it make sense without plate tectonics being involved.

Some teams have four non-conference games to play around with, but four teams do not, and Georgia is one of them. Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, and South Carolina all have annual in-state rivalry games with non-conference opponents. The Bulldogs are using one of the other three (and, in cases like 2009, two of the other three) to tackle intersectional BCS conference opponents, but we are working Clemson into the mix from time to time, doing a home-and-away in 2002 and 2003, then again in 2013 and 2014.

For those of us who grew up with the Georgia-Clemson rivalry in its heyday, though, twice every decade simply isn’t enough. Periodic bowl games with Arkansas will quite suffice, but, if you’d asked me when I was 18 years old to name the Bulldogs’ biggest rivals, I’d have said (1) Auburn, (2) Clemson, (3) Florida, and (4) Georgia Tech. While that order would be different today, old habits die hard. You should know that . . . you’re determined to hold onto a boot trophy that didn’t exist until the early 1990s. Imagine how I feel about wanting to restore a rivalry that dates back to the late 1890s.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Dec 17, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, Mr. King, I suppose I'd be remiss not to weigh in

I’m late to the table, and just about every point has been discussed ad nauseum, so I’ll try to interject some thoughts that haven’t been touched upon previously.

Not trying to be funny here, but I get it… I really do. I cut my teeth on the great Arkansas/Texas games of yesteryear, and you’ve never seen a victory over a particular opponent invigorate an entire fanbase, an entire STATE, as much as Arkansas beating Texas, so renewing that rivalry would be special. Does that mean I’m ready to abandon the earning potential pointed out by LosAngelesRazorback below to join the Big XII? Not really. But it is flattering to think the Big XII wants us, which, I’m not scared to say, they do.

A recurring theme, particularly among the Georgia fanbase, is that Arkansas is not a good “fit” in the SEC. Or that Clemson, FSU, GT, etc. is a better “fit.” In an attempt to alleviate the concerns of the Georgia fanbase, let me offer the following: Arkansas is a bona fide southern state. You can’t get caught up in semantics regarding Arkansas’ former membership in the SouthWEST Conference. Everything about our culture, cuisine, ideals, manner of speaking, etc. identifies us as southerners. We are contiguous with three other states representing the SEC, and our fanbase stretches to every corner of Arkansas. Take me for example. I grew up much closer to Oxford, Starkville, and Baton Rouge than I did to Fayetteville, but there was never a question where my loyalty would lie. I was from ARKANSAS. I think the far-reaching influence of the University of Arkansas within the state is why there’s less resistance to Arkansas from the West Division schools. They see it up-close and personal, and are even affected by it in some instances (e.g. seems to be more Hog fans in Memphis than Rebels, Commodores, or Vols). I understand fully that this doesn’t help any UGA fans wishing to travel to Fayetteville to see the Dawgs. We don’t necessarily enjoy playing a game in Columbia every other year.

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, and I respect that. You guys have your old-school rivalries just like us, and it would be exciting to see those rivalries renewed. This post was taken as intended… fun and thought-provoking, because at the end of the day, that’s all it’s going to be. Arkansas isn’t leaving the SEC.

And for what it’s worth, I think we bring more to the table than South Florida. I can attach a resume if needed.

by Sue E. Pig on Dec 18, 2009 4:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Good points, as always, Sue E. Pig . . .

. . . and you’re right; it’s all idle speculation in the de facto offseason. Notre Dame has already made it clear that the Fighting Irish aren’t interested in joining a conference, the Big Ten will take a year to look this over before deciding to wait a little longer for the Golden Domers to get off of their high horse, and, in the end, no one is going anywhere.

You make a good point about the geography and I certainly think the Razorbacks bring something to the table. I just grew up thinking of Arkansas as a team we play in bowl games periodically and Clemson as a team we play every year. That notion remains ingrained in me, so I’m always looking for ways to get the Tigers back on the Bulldogs’ schedule where they belong.

Thanks, as always, for bringing a reasonable rival fan’s perspective to the table. I hope you and your family have a merry Christmas.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Dec 18, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Arkansas is definitely a bona fide Southern State,

complete with the requisite dry counties even! (All of Fort Smith is in a dry county and which makes it not the last place on I-40 to buy real beer before crossing over into Oklahoma, I forget exactly where that line is, but I’m pretty sure the Wal-mart near Morrilton has beer.)

"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain

by podunkdawg on Dec 18, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Arkansas Isn't leaving the SEC - Here is Why!

SEC revenue sharing 2009 was $11.1 Million for each SEC member.

Big 12 top revenue sharing was Texas with $10.4 Million and bottom Baylor at $7.1 Million.
The Big 12 does not share their revenue equally like the SEC, It’s determined who is on Television more.

2009 TV Revenue.
Texas $10.4 Million
Arkansas $11.1 Million plus (New contract with Texas A&M $5 Million to each team) We play Texas A&M in the new Cowboys stadium for the next 30 years Arkansas comes out with $16.1 Million a year.

As for Distance.. It means nothing anymore in College football take a look.
Big 10 St. Paul, MN to State College, PA 15 hours 8 mins.
SEC Fayetteville, Ark to Gainesville, Fl 16 hours and 5 min.
Pac-10 Washington to Tucson, AZ 25 hours.
Big 12 Austin, Tx to Lincoln, NE 14 hours

Clemson, Louisville and Georgia Tech bring no new TV markets to the SEC. Arkansas, while with only 3 million people, still brings the whole state. Arkansas also Brings in the Dallas Market just like LSU brings in the Houston Market. (Both of ours schools biggest alumni bases outside of each state)

Nice Try guys my southern brothers but we aren’t going anywhere. :-)

source: ESPN and Google Maps.

by LosAngelesRazorback on Dec 18, 2009 12:22 AM EST reply actions  

p.s. With Arkansas bordering 3 SEC states and 3 Big 12 states we can pick and choose we will stay in the SEC.

We’ve given way more National Championships to the SEC than South Carolina, Kentucky, MSU, Ole Miss and Vanderbilt since the expansion of the SEC in 1991.

Arkansas
Basketball: 1994 National Champions
Track Outdoor: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2003
Track Indoor: 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006
Track Cross Country: 1991, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1998, 1999, 2000

Not to mention the countless NCAA tournament Bids in Baseball and Basketball. Arkansas is a very nice Revenue producer for the SEC.

by LosAngelesRazorback on Dec 18, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I once heard Vince Dooley give a speech . . .

. . . in which he said the same thing. He pointed out that we don’t differentiate between football teams by saying those who play in domes take part in “indoor football.”

It’s my understanding that Arkansas does this for Directors’ Cup purposes, as it allows them to count more sports at which they excel.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Dec 18, 2009 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

As for distance

ACC Miami, FL to Boston, MA 59 hours and 16 minutes

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Dec 18, 2009 2:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I know you were kidding there, but actually

ACC: Boston, MA to Miami, FL: 24 hours and 24 min
Compare with
Big East Storrs, CT to Tampa, FL: 21 hours 9 minutes

Now, if you moved teams that are obviously in the wrong conference according to anyone that consults a map (Penn State should not be in the Big Ten, BC should not be in the ACC, USF should not be in the Big East), then you’d get a somewhat more compact

Big Ten Columbus, OH to St. Paul, MN: 12 hours 24 minutes
ACC College Park, MD to Miami, FL: 16 hours 45 minutes
Big East Storrs, CT to Louisville, KY: 14 hours 57 minutes

by drothgery on Dec 18, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

1 out of 2

You said that Clemson and Georgia Tech would not bring a new TV market to the SEC. That statement was correct.

But you also said that Louisville would not bring a new TV market to the SEC. And that statement was incorrect.

Glad we cleared that up.

...just apologize for not thanking me.

by kidbourbon on Dec 18, 2009 2:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Good points, LosAngelesRazorback...

… but also consider the following:

The closest SEC school to Fayetteville, AR is Ole Miss. Oxford, Mississippi is approximately 393 miles away, according to Google Maps.

Compare this with the following distances to Big 12 towns:
- Stillwater, OK – 183 miles
- Norman, OK – 250 miles
- Columbia, MO – 317 miles
- Manhattan, KS – 356 miles
- Lawrence, KS – 266 miles

Almost half of the schools in the Big 12 are closer to the University of Arkansas’ campus than the closest SEC school.

In my opinion, it simply makes too much geographic sense to not at least consider the move.

by vineyarddawg on Dec 18, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Majority of Fan Base is In Little Rock

The majority of Razorback fans live in the Central part of the state, not the Northwest, where Fayetteville is located. NWA is growing rapidly however without Little Rock is still the Hub that is why we still play there. You do realize Arkansas is the only team in the country which plays in 2 stadiums yearly, as Home games. (Fayetteville, Little Rock) We used to play 3 games a year, every year, in Little Rock until recently it has been reduced to 2 games.

Little Rock, Ark is almost closer to Oxford than Fayetteville.
Fayetteville, Ark – 190 Miles (Our own Campus for the majority of the state)
Oxford, MS – 213 Miles
Starkville, MS – 320 Miles
Nashville, TN – 348 Miles
Birmingham, AL – 373 Miles

I understand your point, how our state campus got located in Northwest Arkansas is another long debate that happened right after the Civil War.

Once again, If it was about opposing fans traveling I would agree with you. I hate when we play LSU in Little Rock and half the stadium is LSU. Make them drive to Northwest Arkansas instead, ha. Penn State has the right idea they are in between both conferences (Big10, Big East) just like Arkansas (Big12, SEC), but at the end of the day the Cash Cow runs the show.

Arkansas All Time Series vs Big 12 North and Oklahoma:
1896 – 2009
Kansas: 1 game
Kansas State: 4 games
Colorado: 0 games
Nebraska: 1 games
Oklahoma: 12 games
Iowa State: 1 games
Missouri: 5 games

Arkansas vs Ole Miss: 55 games played
Arkansas vs LSU: 53 games played

by LosAngelesRazorback on Dec 18, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Certainly, it's partially politics...

… but I suspect that the reason the dual home field arrangement began in the first place was for the same reason it did everywhere else in the south… accessibility. Back in the early and mid-twentieth century, it was frequently very difficult to get large crowds into the small towns that housed state universities. In addition, larger sports facilities were usually available in bigger cities. As a result, many teams moved their “big” home games to venues with better accessibility for fans and greater seating capacity.

 Arkansas is the only team that still plays their home games in two different cities annually. Both Alabama and Auburn, however, played multiple home games in Legion Field in Birmingham for decades. Auburn left first, with Alabama keeping the arrangement until the capacity of Bryant-Denny Stadium surpassed that of Legion Field in 1999. (Though the Tide kept playing 1 game a year there until 2003.)

Georgia played “home” games in Piedmont Park in Atlanta many times during the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, especially when a big-name opponent would come to town, like Virginia in 1897, Vanderbilt in 1898, North Carolina several times in the first 20 years of Georgia football, and Auburn. (In fact, 16 of the first 24 meetings in the Deep South’s Oldest Rivalry were played in Atlanta before the game was “permanently” moved to Columbus in 1920. In Georgia’s case, Athens became the permanent home for virtually every home game in 1929 with the advent of Sanford Stadium, and the rail link to Atlanta in that early part of the century ensured that large crowds could get to Athens for big games.

Other schools didn’t have the same accessibility or facilities with large seating capacities, so relocating for home games was quite common for a long time.

And nothing against Little Rock or War Memorial Stadium, but with the new additions from a few years ago, Donald W. Reynolds Razorback Stadium is now one of the most impressive facilities in the SEC. It also seats about 23,000 more than WMS, which means more crowd noise for the Hogs and more money for the University. Not to mention the fact that WMS, from my observation, is a lot like the Cotton Bowl Stadium in Dallas (and, for that matter, Legion Field in Birmingham)… lots of history and great memories, but its best years are long past.

Were I an Arkansas fan, I would lobby for every game to be played in Fayetteville, simply because the stadium there is a far better setting to experience an Arkansas football game. From what you’re saying, the games stay in Little Rock because of politics, and I can appreciate the fact that I don’t fully understand the politics of the Arkansas fan base and why they prefer having games in an older, inferior stadium because it’s closer to their house. (Wow, that came across as far more derisive than I intended it to sound.)

To support my case for Arkansas belonging in the Big 12, though, I would like to posit the following question to the Razorback Nation: Which team would you rather beat in a season?
- Texas or Alabama?
- Texas A&M or Auburn?

I know Ole Miss and LSU are big rivals for you, but that doesn’t mean that Arkansas belongs in the SEC. Georgia has longstanding, storied rivalries with Clemson and Georgia Tech, but that doesn’t mean Georgia belongs in the ACC.

by vineyarddawg on Dec 18, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

And please don't get me wrong...

… I’m not lobbying for Arkansas to be kicked out of the SEC. I’m merely saying that, were Missou to leave for the Big 10+2, and were the Big 12 looking for a replacement, Arkansas would be the natural first place to look.

I’m also secondarily arguing that Arkansas is a more natural fit for the Big 12 than the SEC… but the truth is that Arkansas was a more natural fit for the SWC than the SEC. All of the good teams in the SWC went to the Big 12 (Hogs excepted), though, so now the Big 12 is the more natural fit.

by vineyarddawg on Dec 18, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh.. War Memorial!

You are spot on about WMS. I personally say move all the games to Fayetteville unless Little Rock upgrades War Memorial with another 25,000 seats. University of Arkansas pays the City of Little Rock $2 million to play there. However, the only defense I have is what you already posted above. Little Rock was the Hub back in the day and all those people still feel entitled to games in Little Rock.

The tailgating experience in Little Rock is amazing. A golf-course surrounds the entire stadium and people are all over the place. It blows the tailgating in Fayetteville out of the water, very rowdy.

I find it funny that Fans of Tennessee travel to Knoxville from Memphis while fans of Arkansas can’t travel from West Memphis to Fayetteville.
Oh, Did I mention, that Fayetteville is closer to Memphis by over an hour compared to Knoxville….

If you are older than 35, You would rather beat Texas and Texas A&M. If you are under 35 you’d rather beat Alabama and Auburn.

You want Clemson in the SEC because it benefits you personally. Just as people in Eastern Arkansas Love the SEC because Ole Miss, MSU and Vandy is closer than Fayetteville. It’s the same reason some people in Texarkana want to play Texas and Texas A&M because it’s closer.

You would kick out many other teams in the SEC before Arkansas and here is why…

In 2007 Forbe’s magazine voted Arkansas as the #14 most Valuable College Football team just behind USC, Trojans. We have dramatically increased our revenue since 2007 (as posted above) therefore, moved up a few positions. I would love to see what the rankings look like for 2010.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/116872

p.s. Remember Arkansas pays Little Rock $2 million each game to play there. 2 games a year $4 million lost. Instead of playing in Fayetteville we play in Little Rock 23,000 seats less and No Skyboxes (We have the most in the NCAA) Tons of potential more revenue lost. When you said Politics, correct sir.

Arkansas is the only SEC baseball team to produce a revenue on it’s own. Arkansas became the first team in NCAA history to average more than 8,000 tickets sold per game (8,069) with a total of 266,270 tickets sold for the 33 home games in 2007.

We are #2 revenue producing in basketball and Football speaks for itself on Forbe’s. I won’t even start on track, ha :-).

The bottom line is simple.. This is a business and Arkansas brings a lot more to the SEC than Clemson, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Florida State or South Florida ever could. Plus you have entire State (Arkansas) TV market not splitting markets (G-Tech, Louisville, South Florida) with Teams already in the SEC.

Of course the Big 12 would push super hard for Arkansas why would they not? Here is my question If Mizzou was doing so well in the Big 12 why talk to the Big 10?

Everyone wants in the SEC not out. If I was Clemson I would do everything possible to get in.. but, We (Arkansas fans) will sit back and laugh because we aren’t going anywhere.

Enjoying the debate vineyarddawg.

by LosAngelesRazorback on Dec 19, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

It is hilarious to think of the SEC without UK

The SEC needs UK more than UK needs the SEC. UK is SEC basketball.

First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...

by btcoop71 on Dec 18, 2009 8:37 AM EST reply actions  

Did someone say something about ditching Kentucky?

I must have missed it.

While we’re on the subject, though, Arkansas’s Southern credentials certainly are superior to Kentucky’s. I mean, at least Arkansas seceded.

Basketball’s the one with the round ball, right? I think we play that in the women’s gymnastics arena.

Anyway, Billy Donovan couldn’t hear how “UK is SEC basketball”; he had national championship trophies in both ears.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Dec 18, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I have to admit, I was baiting, just looking for a reaction

You didn’t disappoint

First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...

by btcoop71 on Dec 18, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Non-KY SEC schools may have a run in hoops...

… but their hearts really aren’t in it and they’ll cheerfully ignore the basketball team when their football team is good. As evidence, SU played Florida in Tampa earlier this month. Both teams were in the top 10. The game was not a sellout, or even close to one.

by drothgery on Dec 18, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Isn't basketball the game we made up to fill the space

between Football & Baseball?

"Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink- under any circumstances." Mark Twain

by podunkdawg on Dec 18, 2009 10:55 AM EST reply actions  

If you add FSU,GT & CU......

You would have an even more ridiculous super-conf. The Feds would step in and break it up. No other conf would ever have a natl champ again. J/K it would be insane though!

by Scalpemall on Dec 28, 2009 8:48 PM EST reply actions  

As a Clemson supporter, I would be extremely excited about the opportunity to

get out of the NC run ACC and into the SEC. I think that there are quite a few geographical rivalries that would benifit from this move. The biggest plus for me would be getting to play Georgia every year. That itself is enough reason for me to champion a conference switch for the Tigers. Excellent article and I hope you plan to toss this concept around further as the Big Ten looks to add its own 12th member.

www.ShakintheSouthland.com
Clemson Sports Analysis and Insight

by FIGUREFOUR on Dec 29, 2009 3:09 PM EST reply actions  

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