Bruins Nation, Sunday Morning Quarterback, and the Right Way to Argue Over Expectations
(Author’s Note: I apologize in advance for the length of what follows, but it concerns recent events of note in the intercollegiate athletics blogosphere which I believe warrant attention. Your patience and understanding are appreciated.)
Since the Diamond Dogs’ win over Stanford on Monday night frees the Georgia baseball team from having to play another College World Series game until Friday, I am at liberty to turn my attention to what now is fewer than 75 days away; namely, football.
On Sunday night, Sunday Morning Quarterback asked what had happened to U.C.L.A. fans’ great expectations. He was referring specifically to Bruins Nation’s demands that Karl Dorrell win nine games and beat Southern California in 2006 and that he win eleven games, capture the Pac-10 title, and beat Southern California in 2007. In justifying last year’s expectations, Nestor explained:
Due to these clear-cut demands for 20 total wins, a conference crown, and back-to-back victories over a squad that has gone 70-8 in the last six seasons, SMQ found somewhat surprising the fact that 6-6 would be considered a success this year. Nestor concluded his overview of a possible 3-9 season thusly:
What will be more important than ever for all of us to remain patient and maintain perspective and a sense of reality while the coaching staff and players work to right the ship for the long term in what I think is going to be a very difficult season.
SMQ had some questions about Nestor’s game-by-game analysis, wondering a bit about the decision to deem a home game against Arizona a toss-up and a road trip to Washington a certain loss while judging the season-ender against U.S.C. one of three sure victories, but his real quarrel was with the divergent expectations imposed upon Karl Dorrell and Rick Neuheisel.
For the former, a Rose Bowl berth was "the bare minimum," but the latter deserved to have his fan base "remain patient and maintain perspective and a sense of reality." Is it possible, SMQ wondered, to square the maintenance of realistic perspective with an insistence that the Granddaddy of ‘Em All represented the minimum standard?
After addressing Nestor’s season summary in succession, examining one outing at a time, SMQ took care not to overstate his point. "It’s not that these projections are destined to be wrong," he noted, acknowledging that "I happen to think, as BN has always maintained, that L.A. should always expect a winning season, including this season" and that "I never disagreed with Bruins Nation that Dorrell should probably be canned."
However, SMQ considers the current expression of "willing[ness] to accept losses to the high end of the Mountain West and to Pac Ten bottom-dwellers" as "staggeringly hypocritical" and "an admission that the ‘expectations’ for Dorrell were ridiculous [and] intentionally constructed to be beyond not only any independent projections but beyond the realistic grasp of anyone in his position."
For this nuanced and exacting analysis, Sunday Morning Quarterback received considerable praise, not just from fans of U.C.L.A.’s conference rivals, but also from devotees of the Washington Redskins, Notre Dame Fighting Irish, South Carolina Gamecocks, and, yes, even the U.C.L.A. Bruins. Nevertheless, when Erik T offered kudos for "the willingness of SMQ, mgoblog, et al to tear into other writers when necessary," I responded with a caveat:
This posting is a prime example, as SMQ meticulously built a case, offered numerous lengthy quotations with links and in context, and articulated his argument without passion or prejudice. Nowhere in there were there the sorts of cheap shots, sweeping overgeneralizations, or ancillary sideswipes which all too often typify disputes in the blogosphere.
SMQ gets, and deserves, great credit for intellectual consistency, breadth of knowledge, and keenness of insight. What he does not get, but deserves to get, great credit for is the class and calmness with which he methodically spells out his position. You may or may not agree with him, but there is no malice in him.
Nestor is a friend of mine, and I understand where he was coming from where Karl Dorrell was concerned; had sports blogs been extant in the universe when Ray Goff was coaching at Georgia, I likely would have been the Nestor of the East Coast, so I cannot fault him for the approach his singleminded devotion to U.C.L.A. led him to take. He was true to his school.
While the members of the Bruins Nation community may not like what SMQ has written here, though, SMQ steered clear of attacking the singer rather than the song. More bloggers (including me) should follow SMQ’s example not only in how they construct an argument, but in being mindful of the tone with which they present it. Too many other bloggers have demonstrated a "willingness . . . to tear into other writers" which was unnecessary, excessive, and meanspirited. Not so SMQ.
I will confess to a certain sensitivity upon this point, since the other weblog Erik T noted by name has taken the aforementioned willingness to tear into other writers a bit too far at times, in my opinion. Accordingly, SMQ’s unfailing class seems particularly praiseworthy to me, which is why I thought it ought to be noted alongside his obvious analytical skills.
Unfortunately, not everyone saw it that way. Instead, in a posting tellingly titled "Bring Out the Tin Foil Hats," Nestor’s co-author Menelaus accused SMQ of "lash[ing] out at Bruins Nation" with "sly jabs." While admitting that SMQ’s piece was "very polite" and expressed "with good prose," Menelaus minced no words:
What comes in between the above quoted introduction and conclusion is an amusing mish-mash of snark, obfuscation and flawed analysis. . . .
[T]hroughout his commentary, SMQ also misses perhaps the most critical point. Specifically, he wrongly compares our collective expectations for a first year coach (Neuheisel) to one who'd been on the job 4 and 5 years (Dorrell). . . .
[D]on't buy into any of the sham details in SMQ's team-by-team analysis. It's so replete with inconsistencies as to be laughable.
As usually is the case when a weblog posting fails to strike a high mark, the comments that followed took a similar tack, directing SMQ to "a ‘we never landed on the moon’ convention," referring to the singular Sunday Morning Quarterback as the plural "trigger happy mudslingers," and lumping the intercollegiate athletics blogosphere’s most universally respected football analyst in with the "people who are never right." Menelaus’s retort even alluded to the description of Bruins Nation as "a single-issue blog" . . . a description offered by someone other than Sunday Morning Quarterback.
At this juncture, full disclosure is warranted: Nestor and SMQ are friends and colleagues of mine here at SB Nation, and I have a great deal of respect for both of them. I provided aid and comfort to Bruins Nation’s campaign against Karl Dorrell, and Nestor and I have agreed to campaign jointly for a Georgia-U.C.L.A. home-and-home football series. Nestor and I are blood brothers who are capable of finding middle ground even when it comes to the East Coast bias.
However, when SMQ examined the Rick Neuheisel hire last December, he cited my misgivings about the former Bruin quarterback. This was my take on Coach Neuheisel’s return to Westwood:
In short, while I share Sunday Morning Quarterback’s general reservations regarding Rick Neuheisel (a man I wanted nowhere near my alma mater’s football program when he was available), I believe SMQ’s lengthy exegesis of the divergent expectations imposed upon the former and current Bruin head football coaches deserves better than the short shrift given it by Menelaus.
A fundamental premise of Bruins Nation’s crusade against Karl Dorrell---a crusade, it should be noted, that SMQ and I each supported in principle---was that coaching matters . . . a lot, in fact. Coach Dorrell took over a program that had gone 25-24 in the 49 games just prior to his arrival and proceeded to win six of his first eight games in Westwood.
What happened after that---most immediately, six straight losses in the Bruins’ next half-dozen outings---demonstrated that Coach Dorrell’s fast start was a chimera, an unrepresentative early surge that preceded a discouraging run for U.C.L.A., culminating in a five-year ledger of 35-28 and, ultimately, his deserved termination.
Even so, though, Coach Dorrell’s initial run of success ought to offer at least some hope that even an ill-considered coaching change can produce a brief upswing at the outset, of the sort stockbrokers describe as a "dead-cat bounce." Indeed, the praise heaped upon Coach Neuheisel at Bruins Nation regularly has been rooted in his immediate impact on the program.
There is, of course, an argument for the proposition that, since the Bruins went 6-7 in Karl Dorrell’s last season, they will not do better than 6-6 in Rick Neuheisel’s first season. After all, Coach Neuheisel took over a Colorado program that went 11-1 in 1994 and guided it to a 10-2 record in his first season in 1995. He later took over a Washington program that had gone 6-6 in 1998 and led it to a 7-5 ledger in his first year in 1999. Initially maintaining the prior level of play with the former coach’s players appears to be Coach Neuheisel’s modus operandi.
That, though, does not appear to be the argument Menelaus is making. He characterizes Rick Neuheisel as "a first year coach," despite his eight prior years of head coaching experience at the college level, and challenges Sunday Morning Quarterback: "To be sure, we had higher expectations for a coach who had several years to establish his system and recruit in his players. Come back next year or in 3 and see if things change (they will). It's that simple."
If it is, in fact, "that simple," the lowered expectations SMQ questions may have to become the norm. In his first two years in Boulder, Coach Neuheisel took Bill McCartney’s players and produced a 20-4 record; he was 5-6 in his third year there and his final season with the Buffaloes saw them winning seven regular-season contests.
The same pattern was repeated in Seattle, where an 11-1 campaign capped off by a Rose Bowl win in his second season declined to 8-4 and a Holiday Bowl loss in his third year and, finally, to 7-6 and a Sun Bowl loss in his fourth. The high water mark of Coach Neuheisel’s career---a 34-24 win over Purdue in Pasadena on New Year’s Day 2001---was separated by less than two years from its nadir, a 34-24 loss to Purdue in El Paso on New Year’s Eve 2002 in his last game as a college head coach.
In his second year at Colorado, Rick Neuheisel’s Buffaloes went 7-1 in Big 12 play; in his fourth year, C.U. went 4-4 against the league. In his second year at Washington, Rick Neuheisel’s Huskies went 7-1 in Pac-10 play; in his fourth year, U.W. went 4-4 against the league. In his last 17 games as a collegiate head coach, Rick Neuheisel compiled a ledger of 8-9.
Will history repeat itself? Maybe, maybe not. However, the case for heightened expectations for Coach Neuheisel in 2008 (when he has what Phil Steele calls "the best set of coordinators in the NCAA in OC Norm Chow and DC DeWayne Walker") seems rather better than in 2010 or 2011, as the evidence that a Rick Neuheisel-coached team will improve in his third and fourth years on the job is nonexistent. Unless the new Bruin head coach has improved dramatically---unless Rick Neuheisel’s past performance is not prologue to his future achievement---the defense of Coach Neuheisel in his later years will require steadily declining expectations every bit as much so as the campaign against Coach Dorrell involved (but, as SMQ notes, did not require) ratcheting those selfsame expectations invariably upwards.
In any case, Sunday Morning Quarterback offers a fair criticism, complete with copious links, multiple quotations, and reasonable comparisons, of "this snap shot in time" provided after spring practice has been concluded and as the summer preview magazines are hitting the newsstands. Even if the authors and commenters who make up the highly-respected Bruins Nation community take issue with SMQ’s latest contentions (much as they did when he agreed with them about Karl Dorrell), Menelaus should know that SMQ is a pretty thoughtful guy, known for in-depth analysis and doing his homework.
Menelaus should know that, in part, because Menelaus said so as recently as last Friday.
Disagree with SMQ if you will, but give the man his considerable due. He did not offer a personal attack; indeed, one of the many ways in which his posting was noteworthy was for its lack of invective and its evenness of tone. Perhaps this merely is a clash of personalities---Bruins Nation and Sunday Morning Quarterback are, respectively, the most and least partisan college sports weblogs at SB Nation---but, if SMQ is to be taken to task, let it be for what he actually wrote, not for some caricature of it.
Sunday Morning Quarterback did not outline a conspiracy theory and I would take issue with anyone who accused Nestor, Menelaus, and the rest of the Bruin faithful of such a thing. However, Menelaus’s recent diatribe against SMQ was over the top and unfair to an extent that did nothing to help me make the case that Bruins Nation is a forum for impassioned yet reasonable fans. If Menelaus’s response is representative of his approach to constructive criticism---and, to be clear, I do not believe it is---he should steer clear of tin foil hat analogies, which do him no favors after a posting like that one.
Go ‘Dawgs!
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well said, sir
if there is an intersection somewhere between ‘internet’ and ‘reasoned argument’, you and SMQ have found it. kudos.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
by ragnarok on Jun 18, 2008 12:26 PM EDT 0 recs
There's arguments on both sides of this
to be perfectly honest. One the one hand, while SMQ’s article is inherently polite on the surface, there’s no doubt a subtle nod to the ‘check out those partisan yokels’ current that’s pretty well-ingrained about BN. Just because he didn’t flat out say it doesn’t make it alright, in my opinion. It’s like the blogosphere equivalent of “Well, isn’t that special”.
On the other hand, I have a hard time taking seriously any preview of UCLA’s predicted W/L ledger that ‘expects’ a win against Southern Cal in the upcoming year. Do I want to win? Hell yes. Do I expect to win? Uh, no. So, there’s also the blatant partisan aspect of the ‘expectations’. And yes, they’re Neuheisel fans right now.
That said, I don’t find the expectations between this year and last year wholly out of line. Dorrell himself said last year’s team was ‘his best ever’. You don’t expect a team that’s your ‘best ever’ to go 6-7. Expectations were high largely because Dorrell fed that enthusiasm and expectation. I
I still find SMQ’s whole, “Look, I am a non-partisan, congenial, above-board blogger” schtick a bit tiring. What he’s trying to accomplish is fairly transparent, and just because he’s nice about it – well, hooray. At least BN is honest with themselves about what they’re trying to accomplish. ;)
by CAJason80 on Jun 18, 2008 3:47 PM EDT 0 recs
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At least BN is honest with themselves about what they’re trying to accomplish. ;)
I think SMQ’s point was that… they aren’t.
by Skin Patrol on
Jun 18, 2008 6:53 PM EDT
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Fair point
I guess what I was getting at is that this is kinda’ of a “Gee, really?” sort of response. Bruins Nation is slanted? Really? I’m shocked!
It’s kinda’ like writing an entire dissertation on how the Xinhua News Service is biased.
by CAJason80 on
Jun 19, 2008 6:37 PM EDT
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That Bruins Nation is staunchly pro-Bruin . . .
. . . is neither scandalous nor surprising; in terms of being true to their school, Nestor, Menelaus, and their co-authors and commenters are not atypical and they even are admirable.
It is what appears to Sunday Morning Quarterback (and to me, as well) as the cognitive dissonance of treating personnel losses as an excuse for Rick Neuheisel to go 3-9 when personnel losses were expressly disclaimed as an acceptable excuse for Karl Dorrell to win fewer than nine games two years previously that is at issue.
Nevertheless, Jason, I want to reiterate that it is refreshing to be able to converse with you about this in a reasonable tone, rather than being told that I’m irrelevant because I’m “the Georgia guy” or, much worse still, being subjected to absolutely unbelievable amounts of ignorance, vitriol, and regional bigotry (as evidenced by this entire reprehensible line of comments) from the latest bunch of louts to accuse all Southerners of continuing to fight a war they keep bringing up in response to a posting having nothing whatsoever to do with the events of the 1860s.
I am constantly amazed at how quickly this argument turned into an ugly expression of blind regional prejudice against Southerners, whom the critics so thoroughly misperceive that they fail even to appreciate that Southern Miss does not compete in the Southeastern Conference. (I believe it was V.O. Key who wrote that non-Southerners thought of the South as one great big Mississippi, while Southerners, with our keen eye for detail, knew that Mississippi was in a class by itself.)
The level of knee-jerk bigotry in the vile line of comments excoriating Garnet and Black Attack ought to be beneath a fan base as educated as U.C.L.A.’s and a community as respectable as Bruins Nation’s. I am disappointed and revolted at the rapidity with which the conversation sunk to such a disgusting level, but it makes me doubly appreciative of your having kept the discussion at a high level. You do credit to your degree-granting institutions on both coasts.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on
Jun 19, 2008 9:27 PM EDT
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Gracious
I never get tired of being called a racist because of my birthplace! Unbelievable but unsurprising.
by Holly on
Jun 19, 2008 11:22 PM EDT
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Yeah
I’m waving the Confederate flag by saying that SMQ and Kyle are good people. And I was one of the ones that wanted to take the thing down. Go figure.
by cocknfire on
Jun 20, 2008 12:36 AM EDT
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I am pleased to report . . .
. . . that I just signed onto my e-mail account and what I found awaiting me there was a gracious e-mail from Menelaus, who informed me that he had deleted many of the offending comments which engaged in South-bashing.
I wrote him back to express my gratitude, but, because I had criticized the Bruins Nation community publicly, I owed it to them to state publicly that the site administrators took reasonable steps to prevent the discussion from turning ugly and to keep the conversation at a high level.
If anyone was wondering why I tried to be deferential to Nestor, Menelaus, and their fellow contributors to the Bruins Nation community, now you know. My thanks go out to Menelaus for making it clear that a high standard is expected of the U.C.L.A. faithful. We should all be so conscientious and responsible about policing our communities.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on
Jun 20, 2008 8:01 PM EDT
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Thankfully
I missed the vilest of the posts over at BN, or my own knee might have jerked. There remains the “jealousy” post, however, that suggests there are those in the Southeastern US who are jealous of UCLA, would transfer if we could, but almost certainly couldn’t be accepted. That’s laughable. Now, I will say that if it had crossed my mind to pursue a higher education on the other side of the country, I might have had some warm thoughts about Stanford or UGA’s kid brother, Cal, but UCLA would not have been in the running.
by NCT on
Jun 20, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
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Re:
Kyle said most of the things that needed to be said in his response, but I’d just point out that the criticism of BN has nothing at all to do with them being slanted, but rather with them being inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst. Slanted would be them being exclusively shameless partisans. I’m fine with that. I’m a a shameless partisan. What’s questionable is that they are illogically inconsistent. As Garnet and Black pointed out in an underappreciated post, it was Bruins Nation who said, emphasis added:
We are not going to accept any candidate as a viable or credible option as UCLA football’s coach, if he falls into any of this following 4 categories:3. NO REPEAT OFFENDERS: This is simple. Unlike the losers across town we don’t want to live with the idea of the NCAA breathing down our necks, and have a permanent target on our backs. So no Rick Neuheisel. Personally this is a tough one for me because I still have a soft sport for Coach Neuheisel, but unfortunately he brings too much baggage. And from the rumor mill, it sounds like DG could be with us on this.
Ignoring for one moment the questionable nature of a fan who would try and dictate to his program the kinds of coaches he won’t “accept” (what does that mean? You’l throw yourself off the admin buildings if he gets hired? Say: I would prefer we not take Coaches X, Y, or Z, but state the point with some sense of self, please—the AD isn’t calling you for advice) they said they wouldn’t… then did? That’s no big deal for the vast majority of us who don’t constantly state their position in terms of absolutes, but that’s simply not how BN operates. Everything to them is all-or-nothing, and that opens them up to a huge amount of criticism. The one of a million differences between SMQ and BN is that the former makes careful statements and the latter doesn’t. And a failure to present points reasonably is precisely why BN is having to spend so much print explaining how they could refuse to “accept” their current coach even while they’re hero worshipping, or why they have dramatically different expecations for the program based on the coach’s name.
More important than all that: the BN peanut gallery are jerks. Flat out, those people fucking suck, I hate them, I hope they all get hit by a bus. They don’t know how to disagree with someone without looking absolutely insecure about themselves, and that’s coming from someone with no dog in this fight. I don’t care about UCLA, I don’t care about how they feel about their coach, but I also don’t care whether SMQ thinks highly (or doesn’t) of BN. I just know that I go read what SMQ writes, I go read what they post at BN, what their commenters say, and I hate that place. I’ll return to SMQ.
Whatever, this whole thing is such a colossal waste of everyone’s time. Ugh.
by Skin Patrol on
Jun 19, 2008 10:47 PM EDT
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A few points, Skin Patrol
First of all, I am grateful to you for your recent participation. One of the great benefits of working here at the SB Nation network is the community interaction, not just between bloggers and commenters, but also between one blogger and another.
However, this oftentimes becomes insular. I know that, as a college guy, I tend to read the other college guys and I don’t devote as much time as I’d like to other bloggers, other than those covering my local pro teams. You’ve gone beyond those artificial boundaries by commenting intelligently and frequently at college blogs when issues of interest to you have arisen, and I thank you for it. More of us should follow your example.
Secondly, you’ve hit the nail on the head, both in terms of Garnet and Black Attack’s underappreciated post and in terms of the internal contradictions of the shifting standards applied to Rick Neuheisel. It was, as you pointed out, as true of his hiring as it now is of his ability to use excuses if he loses. You argued the point well, with evidence, and I thank you for it.
Finally, I would be remiss if I did not offer a partial defense of Bruins Nation and a respecful request. I argued when nominating Bruins Nation for a C.F.B.A. that the weblog had the best community interaction in the blogosphere, because a wide variety of viewpoints are expressed there among the U.C.L.A. faithful, as we saw during the search for the coach who would succeed Karl Dorrell.
I believe there are some bad apples there (as evidenced by the ugly turn the reply to Garnet and Black Attack took, when the usual animadversions against the South were leveled without any provocation or evidence whatsoever), and I wish Nestor and Menelaus would control them better (which they may have done since the last time I visited; the South-bashing in the comments after Menelaus’s “circle the wagons” post were so despicable, they turned my stomach, and I do not intend to subject myself to such gutter bigotry by going back to that particular comment thread), but I will defend the community as a whole, even if I differ strongly with them upon this particular issue.
Beyond that, I cannot conscientiously point out the beam in my brother’s eye without first removing the splinter from my own. In that regard, I’d be most appreciative if we could avoid the F-word and openly hoping for anyone to “get hit by a bus.”
I know you don’t literally mean that, but I’d be grateful if we could avoid particularly coarse language and even joking expressions of hope that anyone suffers serious physical injury. Basically, if it’s bad enough that I wouldn’t say it about Auburn, I’d ask commenters here not to say it about anyone.
Aside from that, though, your observations are spot-on and your contributions are, and remain, welcome. Much obliged.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on
Jun 19, 2008 11:17 PM EDT
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Understood.
I’ve never been accused of being polite but perhaps that’s why I’m so good at recognizing my own. The BN peanut gallery has a lot more in common with the likes of me than it does with you or SMQ.
In any event, it’s your house and my baggage on the language. We’re on the same page.
by Skin Patrol on
Jun 20, 2008 7:38 AM EDT
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Thanks, Skin Patrol
We’re cool. Carry on.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on
Jun 20, 2008 8:12 AM EDT
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Um...so what IS SMQ trying to accomplish?
Not to be too snide here, but I’m not sure where the “what he’s trying to accomplish” thing comes from, or what hidden agenda you think he’s trying to pursue and what benefit said agenda provides to him or his readers.
And to crow that BN is honest about their goals—I think that’s the whole point of what Matt (SMQ) is saying, that they are being more than a little disingenuous at least, and hypocritical at worst, in their wholly negative spin on Karl Dorrell and the newly wholly positive spin in Rick Neuheisel.
Finally…”shtick?” Seriously? If there is ever a contest to determine which blog, SMQ or BN, leans more heavily on having a shtick in order to get by, I know where I’m casting my vote and I’ve got a pretty good idea which direction most others would lean as well.
by Beatuofa on
Jun 18, 2008 7:13 PM EDT
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Karl Dorrell did contribute to the high expectations . . .
. . . but an 11-1 regular season, a conference championship, and a victory over the dominant program in the sport in the 21st century is a tall order for any coach. I have the highest of hopes for the Bulldogs this year, but I would never call the Sugar Bowl “the bare minimum,” even for Mark Richt’s most talented team (which this year’s unit very well may be).
While hypocrisy may be a strong word, SMQ is on solid ground when he points out the cognitive dissonance. Two years ago, Bruins Nation argued that “anyone who has been closely following this program knew that we would have to have to deal with the loss of our top seven or eight players . . . [s]o to make the excuse of losing top players for a bad record next season is just ridiculous.”
Now, however, Bruins Nation expects a record between 3-9 and 6-6 because of “uncertainty in our quarterback situation, lack of depth on the offensive live, and the massive departure of upperclassmen from last year’s underachieving team.”
SMQ asks, I think fairly, why “the excuse of losing top players for a bad record” under Karl Dorrell was “just ridiculous” if “the massive departure of upperclassmen” and similar personnel issues--in other words, the loss of top players—is such an acceptable excuse for a bad record under Rick Neuheisel that matching Coach Dorrell’s last regular-season record would make the Bruin faithful “ecstatic.”
I don’t think SMQ has axes to grind here, as he challenges conventional wisdom, unsupported assumptions, and contradictory arguments at every turn . . . so much so that, even though he is a staunch playoff advocate, he invariably criticizes dubious aspects of particular tournaments (the 2007 College World Series, the 2008 Super Bowl, the “play-in” game in the N.C.A.A. basketball tourney) rather than blindly declaring, “I support a college football playoff, therefore I will shill for all things playoff!”
SMQ has intellectual integrity enough to report on realities which might be used to undermine his own position, so I don’t think he can be accused of disingenuousness. I don’t think he says he’s a nonpartisan, congenial, above-board blogger, because he doesn’t have to say it; it is evident in everything he does.
In any case, though, Jason, I appreciate your having taken the time to share your thoughts. Given your position as someone with a foot in both the S.E.C. (Georgia) and Pac-10 (U.C.L.A.) camps, you are able to offer perspectives which those of us who lack your “dual citizenship” might well have missed without you. For that, I am grateful, even when circumstances compel us respectfully to disagree.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on
Jun 18, 2008 8:25 PM EDT
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First 2 vs. Last 2
Here’s a complete breakdown of Neuheisel’s first two years at his previous school and his second two years at his previous schools. It expands on something you wrote earlier and linked to.
by Year2 on Jun 18, 2008 8:42 PM EDT 0 recs
Thanks, Year2
While we’re at it, for the sake of open discussion and full disclosure, Menelaus’s reply may be found here.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on
Jun 18, 2008 8:46 PM EDT
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P.S.:
Also, Orson’s definitive final word upon the subject may be found here.
Go 'Dawgs!
by T Kyle King on
Jun 18, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
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After reading Orson's comment, I can think of only one thing
Just how did Gerard Butler get those awesomely enviable abs for 300? I need a copy of that workout.
by SG Standard on
Jun 18, 2008 11:40 PM EDT
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BTW, I took it down because they said they had already discussed the topic and didn’t want to rehash it. I can repost it elsewhere if anyone wants.
by Year2 on
Jun 19, 2008 12:39 AM EDT
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yay me!
Of course, I agree with your response to my comment, although I don’t think I said as much at SMQ.
by Erik T on Jun 19, 2008 12:15 AM EDT 0 recs
Thanks to those of you who had kind words
I’ve obviously learned not to take much of what was said by the BN commenters seriously. Kyle’s original point was, as usual, spot on: There are ways to disagree without descending into the gutter. Most of those who responded at BN to “the recent unpleasantness” have regrettably not learned that.
by cocknfire on Jun 20, 2008 12:44 AM EDT 0 recs











