Why the Georgia Bulldogs Will Own the Florida Gators Starting in 2009
Although I made this point in a recent comment, it bears repeating and emphasizing at a moment at which Bulldog Nation is down following yet another Steve Spurrier-style loss to Florida.
That point is this:
If you don’t believe me, you probably didn’t believe me when I told you in January 2007 that Georgia would beat Florida the following fall. How’d that doubt work out for you?
Although the Georgia-Florida series dates back to 1904, the modern rivalry as we know it today began in the early 1930s, when the Southeastern Conference was formed and the game permanently moved to Jacksonville.
Since that time, the two teams have traded equal periods of dominance with a degree of regularity that is almost eerie.
Between 1931 and 1951, Georgia and Florida met 20 times. (The series was interrupted for one year during World War II.) During that period, the Bulldogs won 17 of 20 series showdowns while the Gators won three.
Between 1952 and 1970, Georgia and Florida met 19 times. During that period, the Gators won 13 of 19 series showdowns while the Bulldogs won five. (There was one tie in that span.)
Between 1971 and 1989, Georgia and Florida met 19 times. During that period, the Bulldogs won 15 of 19 series showdowns while the Gators won four.
Between 1990 and 2008, Georgia and Florida met 19 times. During that period, the Gators won 16 of 19 series showdowns while the Bulldogs won three.
Georgia owned the series for 20 straight clashes at a time when a brief interruption of the rivalry extended the natural cycle slightly. After that, Florida owned the series for exactly 19 seasons, then Georgia owned the series for exactly 19 seasons, then Florida owned the series for exactly 19 seasons.
The Gators’ latest precisely-allotted 19-year cycle of dominance began in 1990, which means it ended in 2008.
If you’re a 21-year-old Georgia fan, take heart. Between now and the time you turn 40, you’re going to have a lot to celebrate at the World’s Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party.
If you’re a Georgia fan who used to worry about the Gators, quit worrying. Worry about who will replace Phillip Fulmer at Tennessee now that he is gone. Worry about who will replace Tommy Tuberville at Auburn if this turns out to be his last season on the Plains. Heck, even worry about what Paul Johnson is accomplishing at Georgia Tech if you must.
Just don’t worry about the Gators. The pendulum in this series swings with the regularity of a metronome and the momentum begins going back the Bulldogs’ way in 2009.
Worry about the Gators starting in 2028. Between now and then, they’re ours.
Georgia will win at least 14 of the next 19 series meetings with Florida and Urban Meyer will finish his career in Gainesville with an overall losing record against the Bulldogs, provided Mark Richt doesn’t get him fired first.
Count on it.
Go ‘Dawgs!
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I do appreciate the detail...
But it sounds like you’re making a big deal of a remarkable coincidence. What is the substantive reason for the apparent “19-year periods of dominance”?
I’ve noted that, at least since the late 1960’s, that the periods of dominance attended significant coaching changes. In the years preceding Vince Dooley, the Gators had a nice record against the Dawgs. When Dooley became coach, the Gators never won twice in a row against him in spite of going through four coaches or so in the same period. Dooley might not have had as good a record as Richt, but one thing you can say about him is that his teams were consistently well disciplined and prepared to play. That isn’t a product of just one man, but the organization that Dooley brought and installed in the program.
Then Dooley left and Florida got Spurrier. Spurrier did not contribute as much organizationaly, but his “instant” success was the product of several things. Galen Hall, most improbably given the probation UF faced in the later 1980s, left him with outstanding players and Spurrier brought in a revolutionary offensive system. But Spurrier also created a recruiting machine, and this accounts for the consistently good teams UF produced through the 1990s. This, at a time when the Bulldogs were regressing badly under Goff. That, more than anything, accounts for the ascendancy of the Gators through 2001. Donnan was a good coach, but he had to rebuild from much lower position than UF at that point.
The Zook years are an anomaly. Zook was a terrible coach. Florida had no business beating UGA during his tenure, and certainly not when facing a coach like Richt and his powerful ‘04 team, but sometimes flukes happen. But Urban Meyer, say what you will about him, has created an incredible infrastructure at UF rivaling the accomplishments of Charley Pell (but without, so far as we know, the recruiting scandals). Pell versus Dooley was perhaps the same situation as Donnan versus Spurrier—Pell took a terrible team at a time when UGA was peaking in ability (and thus going winless against the Dawgs from ’79 to ’83, even though UF was gaining ground). Pell’s legacy might be the UF wins in ‘84 and ’86; afterward, his recruits had graduated and Galen Hall’s teams were racked by probation and neither was he the organizational leader that Pell was. Spurrier only benefitted from the improbably good ’87 recruiting class Hall got. It is the infrastructure that creates lasting success, not arbitrary fate determined by the end of a 19 year period.
Unless something happens to impair UF’s organizational structure, like Meyer getting fired and Zook brought back, the best that will happen for you guys is parity. I suppose UGA will be happy with that. We’d have a genuine rivalry again. But a period of dominance for the Dawgs like the Gators have just enjoyed? Don’t bet on it!
*sigh*
I wish I shared your optimism, but I don’t. I do think UGA can expect to beat Florida 1/2 the time. Richt is 4-3 against Auburn and 5-3 against Tennessee, and I see no reason why he shouldn’t be at least 4-4 against Florida other than our team wetting the bed as soon as they see those teal seats. Florida EXPECTS to win in Jax. and we EXPECT to wet the bed. NO ONE is going on a 16-3 run against Florida. That’s not to prop UF up, I don’t think anyone should go 16-3 against us in the next 19 years either. Like I said yesterday, Charlie Pell and Galen Hall ain’t walking through that door. We had our chance from 2002-2005 to really change the dynamic of this rivalry, and went 1-3 when we should have gone 4-0. Apathy has set in with this rivalry, we KNOW going down there we’re not going to win, even when we’re more talented. Something has to shake that apathy, I think a change of venue: http://gatriguy.blogspot.com
I have to agree with Matt on this one...
as much as I would like to return to those days of dominance over the Crocs, I just don’t think anyone is going to have a streak like that against anyone in our conference anymore. The fact that kids are getting faster and stronger than they were 20 years ago coupled with the 85 scholorship restrictions IMO levels the playing field a bit compared to those times. You are still going to have your elite teams but they will have down years that allow the Vandy or UK or Miss St to get a win in a lopsided series.
We had every chance in the world to be 5-2 against UF since 2002 and we didn’t get it done for whatever reason. Don’t think that wouldn’t have changed the dynamic of the rivalry right there, instead we are 2-5 in that time span and nothing has really changed from a psychological stand point.
LOL.
We’ll be on the lookout for the impending Dawg invasion.
What I think you’re forgetting about with these trends is that the sleeping giant in Florida was just starting to awaken in the mid-eighties. When Spurrier arrived the blinders and training wheels were removed for good. There were some very good Georgia teams then and some very good ones now. By contrast there has been a steady stream of great Gator teams since 1990 (the Zook years notwithstanding, but that was a brief 3-year period.)
I really don’t see any reason for this series to change its complexion so long as it’s an Urban vs. Richt battle. I’ll take our coach to win that one 8 or 9 out of 10 times. You do realize Meyer is 10-1 vs. Florida’s rivals since he arrived in 2005? Tennessee and FSU have been down, but there’s no way you pull that off without being a superlative coach. And you might have noticed, he has a bit of a mean streak when you challenge him.
We’ll be ready to avenge the Celebration again in 2009. See you there. :)
Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com
And again...
it’s garbage like this that perpetuates the stereotype of Gator fans. Way to represent your fan base jerk wad.
Richt was outcoached this year, but if he is the coach that I and the rest of the Dawg Nation thing that he is it won’t happen again. You may win next year (but I am betting you won’t), I still wouldn’t take that Douchebag of a coach that you have over ours anyday of the week.
What did I say...
… that you found so offensive? Mr. King said next year will mark the beginning of a new era of UGA dominance. I expressed my opinion, in none-too-incidendiary a fashion, that I didn’t see any reason for that to occur. This is a forum in which we’re free to agree or disagree in civil fashion, is it not?
Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com
Here is what I had a problem with....
“I really don’t see a change…..Richt v Urban….8 out of 9 or 10 etc….yadda…yadda..superlative coach…”
“We’ll be here to avenge the Celebration again in ’09….etc”
I don’t really think that Urban has demonstrated himself as a “superlative” coach yet. By my count he has won ONE SEC championship (with Zooks players no less) and in the years that he has coached UF has lost 5,1,4,and so far 1 game respectively. Yes UF has a MNC in Urban Douchebag’s tenure, but I believe Kyle did a post on the difference between UF,LSU, and UGA’s 13-1 seasons (basically it’s the luck of who loses or doesn’t lose ahead of you).
As for ’avenging the celebration" I really hope that we come out and throttle you next year and then dance in the end zone again.
check your numbers
5, 1, 4, and 1? I don’t think so. Meyer didn’t lose his 5th game at UF until his 3rd season.
I am also tired of hearing that he won the Championships “with Zook’s players.” You know what? Zook went 7-5 with the same players. Plus, Tebow was a key part of the championship season and he was Urban’s recruit. Our squad this season is made up of all Meyer recruits and they seem to be every bit as talented as anyone Zook recruited. Let’s put that little jab to bed.
Meyer and Richt are both great coaches – let’s all hope that they stick around for a long time to further enhance this great rivalry!
Well said, Rocket
Here’s what Richt had to say in response to a reporter’s questions about Florida’s coach calling those timeouts:
“To me the rules say you’ve got three timeouts per half,” said Richt. “They can use as many as they want. It’s in the rules. They used their timeouts and they have the right to do that. I’m still very proud to be a Bulldog; I’ll tell you that.”
I added the emphasis. Look, Urban Meyer’s done a litany of douchy things, but I’m not going to whine about those timeouts because frankly its payback for out celebration, and this is a fierce rivalry game. But Richt’s answer to that question is very telling, in conjunction with the coach’s postgame handshake (or lack thereof).
by The ArchDawg on Nov 4, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
I thought the payback
was Spikes’ dry-humping of Knowshon right after his big hit. How a flag doesn’t get thrown on that play i’ll never know. Oh, wait…it happened in front of Penn Wagers. Mea Culpa.
I don't think . . .
GP was being a jerkwad. His post was essentially factual. The Urbster is in fact 10-1 against Florida’s traditional rivals since 2005. And, as he tacitly admits, that number is helped by the fact that Bobby Bowden may or may not even realize his squad is still playing Florida annually. And the fact that Larry Coker and Randy Shannon have presided over a ho-hum period in Miami football history. And let’s not forget Mark Richt is in fact 2-6 against the Gators, 1-3 against Meyer. That’s not in dispute. Looking through Gatorpilot’s orange and blue lenses, I would come to the same conclusion about the future.
But here’s the thing: Kyle’s hypothesis isn’t based on Urban Meyer’s record and qualifications, or Mark Richt’s or Tim Tebow’s. It’s based solely on a long term analysis of the data. To put it in economic terms: Gatorpilot is saying that Urban, Inc. is a good stock to buy for the next 3-5 years (you know, until he goes to coach the Texans or the Seahawks . . .zing!) based on concrete performance data, while Kyle is saying that “the market is down, but history shows us that the market swings up and down around an ascending mean” (said the econ. geek).
The King Hypothesis does not take into account Meyer hanging around in Gainesville, or Tim Tebow coming back for his senior season, or some rogue booster getting the Gators put on probation, or Kirby Smart taking over as the head coach in Tallahassee and building a Seminole dynasty, or any of a billion other things that could alter either partisan’s prediction. I would say that for different reasons, both have sound support.
This rivalry has gotten a heck of a lot more interesting in the past 12 months. Nobody on either side of the Valdosta/Dasher metroplex will dispute that, right? That’s why we’re all on this blog, talking about what we’re talking about.
Macon...you're right
Despite the blowout, this is a rivalry. I live in south Florida and am surrounded by the enemy. They HAD to win, and they did. Otherwise, there is huge criticism in Gainesville. I really felt Florida had more pressure on them, yet we are the ones that choked.
Eight or nine out of ten is ridiculous to the point of being comical
First of all, I don’t think Gatorpilot was being a jerk. He has an established track record of reasonableness here and he certainly wasn’t calling us out any more than I was calling them out with this posting. I’m not going to criticize Tim Tebow and his teammates for dancing on the sideline because it’s no different from when Knowshon Rockwell Moreno and his teammates do the same thing.
That said, MaconDawg is right. The 19-year cycles may not be an immutable law of history, but neither is Georgia’s success against defending national champions . . . yet I have been proven correct each and every time I have trotted out that datum.
Crash Davis is right: in sports, if you think you’re winning because of some superstitious nonsense, then you are. Psychology has every bit as much to do with the Gators’ present success as coaching. If that weren’t the case, would Ron Zook have gone 2-1 against the Bulldogs?
While Gatorpilot finds fault with my rationale, here are the problems with his position:
Coaches do not always maintain the same level of success throughout their careers. Steve Spurrier wasn’t as successful during his last five years at Florida as he was during his first seven years at Florida. Wally Butts wasn’t as successful during his last 12 years at Georgia as he was during his first ten years at Georgia.
Competing programs rise and fall. Tennessee could hire a coach to replace Phillip Fulmer who will restore the Volunteers to their elite status. Jimbo Fisher could restore the Seminoles to their elite status after Bobby Bowden retires. South Florida is a rising program in a B.C.S. conference that has the capacity to take recruits from the Gators.
Defenses adjust to blunt the effectiveness of offensive innovations. Tim Tebow is a once-in-a-generation player and will not be easily replaced. Colt McCoy is a great quarterback, but he’s no Vince Young. Urban Meyer has no lengthy track record of building a program for long-term success.
Mark Richt also has the capacity to focus laser-like intensity upon a single opponent. The loss in the 2003 S.E.C. championship game inspired him to drop double-digit thumpings on L.S.U. the next three times his team went up against the Bayou Bengals in what were expected to be close games.
We’re both making assumptions. The difference is that mine are based on more than 75 years of consistent history and Gatorpilot’s are based on three and a half seasons and the hope that reality prior to 2005 is irrelevant. Good luck with that.
Go 'Dawgs!
Thank you for that well-expressed opinion.
Okay, “predicting” an 80-90 success rate against Georgia over the next ten years is probably not defensible except by gut feeling. Let’s face it, there’s a massive amount of data here, chaos reigns supreme, things change year in and out. No one knows what will happen. Mark Richt could become a cross-dresser and be mistaken for Helen Hunt even more frequently. Urban Meyer could join the Peace Corps and start snipping Nigerian orphans’ private parts in the name of God. Florida could have a string of outstanding recruiting classes that win a string of SEC titles and a few more BCS titles as well. Georgia could find a superhuman combo of David Pollack, Herschel Walker and David Green, who plays on both sides of the ball and also placekicks.
But to me, basing a prediction of a long streak in the opposite direction because the Dawgs have been enduring one for a time calls for the disclaimer ‘past performance does not guarantee future results." I mean, you could really get ridiculous with this one. Why not predict that because Harvard, Yale, and Princeton dominated from 1909 to 1912 that they won’t do so again every 100 years? Or that Georgia Tech is due to reverse the 8-0 trend against Georgia, winning most of the games in the rivalry for the next decade, despite the clear difference in overall talent?
It just seems absurdly arbitrary to base your prediction on past W-L stats. I’m choosing to go with my belief that Florida will continue to improve under Urban Meyer based on their overall record, their record against Georgia, championships won and recruiting. If Richt is going to start beating Florida regularly, something must change. What will that be?
Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com
Beats me
Maybe whatever it was that changed between 1970 and 1971.
Prior to that point, Vince Dooley was 3-3-1 against the Gators.
After that point, Coach Dooley was 14-4 over Florida.
Something changed. I don’t know what it was, but the reality that it happened is an historical fact.
Go 'Dawgs!
but neither is Georgia’s success against defending national champions . . . yet I have been proven correct each and every time I have trotted out that datum.
Again, you’re presenting a statistical coincidence as a law of nature. Here’s the substance (or my attempt at making sense of things). UGA in ‘97 and ’07 wasn’t playing the national championship Gators of ‘96 and ’06. Urban Meyer had said in a press conference that there were a lot of UF players last year wearing championship hats that they should have bought at the bookstore. In ’97 and ’07, the heart of the national championship squads had graduated or left for the NFL, weakening the Gators. They could still win most of their games, sometimes convincingly, but they were also going to lose a few. In 1997 and 2007, UGA fielded very good teams with identical or better records than the Gators (10-2 in ’97 and 11-2 last year). If UGA was 1-10 either of those years, do you think their one win would’ve been against the Gators simply because they “always beat the national champions the next year”? No, it was the fortuitous combination of a weakened UF team and a highly competitive UGA team.
As for what changed in 1970 and 1971, Doug Dickey became coach at Florida. The program literally was a mess when he was fired in 1978. It took Charley Pell until 1983 to create a team that could legitimately push the Dawgs around and until ‘84 before they could beat them, and he wasn’t even around to see the win or the probation that would set the Gators back the rest of the decade. And Dooley, as I mentioned earlier, built a machine. Perhaps not on the level of Bear Bryant, but one far better than the Gators had at that time.
Commenters have pointed out that Spurrier’s and Wally Butt’s performance degraded during the latter parts of their careers. But even this isn’t an inevitability. Bear Bryant was thought to be losing it in the late 1960s, but made the fundamental changes he needed to his program to create a monster that owned the 1970s. Bobby Bowden had two and a half decades of great teams. Eddie Robinson had an amazingly long run. That’s the key. Can a coach create and maintain the natural conditions for sustained success?
Shorter point: don’t mindlessly give credit to apparent statistical trends. You need to understand the underlying reasons for the trends.
Mr. Fibble, I'm afraid your . . .
argument against historical inevitability actually bolsters Kyle’s argument. Who’s to say Richt won’t make necessary changes, just as Bryant did, and pass Meyer? Who’s to say that John Brantley or Cam Newton won’t become the next Casey Clausen? While your reading of history is fairly reasonable, even you have to admit that your argument is premised on the fallacy that the near future will mirror the recent past, a fallacy which is just as flawed if not more so than Kyle’s reliance on historical trends. Under your logic, Tennessee should be celebrating it’s 3rd SEC Championship of the 2000’s. After all, they had an absolute “machine” rolling from ‘95-’00, right?
While prior performance is no guarantee of future returns (ht, Gatorpilot), the surest way to lose money in the stock market is to buy the stock that everybody else is, too. I just have a hunch that Florida is on the verge of being overpruchased, if you know what I mean.
Fair enough...
Who’s to say UF can keep it up, indeed. If Brantley or Newton are disappointing, a strong and resilient organization can overcome those weaknesses or else replace them in short order. Meyer has always emphasized infrastructure at UF, so in the long run I think his teams will continue to win. You might disagree, and that’s okay.
But the question is really about the natural conditions for success. Recruiting, where UT was king (or tried to be), is obviously not all there is. Or else Ron Zook would be the best Gators coach ever. Fulmer was a talented enough coach to put things together for an amazing five year run, but not good enough to figure out how to maintain the success.
The organization includes the bringing in talented assistant coaches, delegating authority, using practice time efficiently, conditioning, scouting, innovative tactics, and so forth. Is Mark Richt going to believe the hype that his team is as good as the Gators and that the Dawgs lost only because of the refs and a few bad breaks? That explanation might be true when one loses to a team once in a while, but when one’s getting beat consistently then clearly there is a deficiency at UGA that isn’t getting addressed.
The prior performance quote is accurate, to a point. A superior organization will produce and win in the long run regardless of the fluctuations of fortune at the individual game level. Guaranteed. The answer to your question is to observe what Meyer has done vis a vis UF football as an organization versus what Richt has done. If Richt is adapting in the right areas, then perhaps we might have parity soon in the rivalry. If not, then the series could come to resemble that of Nebraska vs. Kansas State.
Unconvincing
“As for what changed in 1970 and 1971, Doug Dickey became coach at Florida.”
False. Doug Dickey, a University of Florida graduate who had guided the 1952 Gators to a Gator Bowl championship season, became the head coach at his alma mater between the 1969 and 1970 seasons, not between the 1970 and 1971 seasons.
Coach Dickey took over a Florida program that had, in ten years (1960-1969) under Ray Graves, averaged seven wins a year and produced a Heisman Trophy winner and a 6-3-1 record against Georgia.
In his last five seasons at Tennessee (1965-1969), Coach Dickey had led the Volunteers to five straight bowl games, an overall 42-10-3 record, and two S.E.C. championships, one of which he won in his last year in Knoxville (1969). During his stint with the Vols, Coach Dickey was twice named S.E.C. coach of the year and he was offered what were at the time top-tier head coaching jobs at Georgia Tech and Oklahoma.
In short, Doug Dickey was a quality coach who took over a quality program in Gainesville which was then enjoying substantial success against the Bulldogs. In his first season with the Gators, Coach Dickey led Florida to a win over Georgia in Jacksonville.
Something changed after that, but Doug Dickey enjoyed as much success (or more) as a head coach at Tennessee and Florida from 1964 to 1970 as Vince Dooley did at Georgia during that same span, just as Urban Meyer has enjoyed as much success (or more) as a head coach at Bowling Green, Utah, and Florida from 2001 to 2008 as Mark Richt has at Georgia during that same span.
After 1970, the scales inexplicably tipped away from Gainesville and towards Athens, even though neither team changed coaches or otherwise underwent some dramatic sea change. Maybe Vince got better, maybe Doug got worse, or maybe the ball just bounced differently, but something changed, rapidly and significantly.
Nothing that was apparent in 1970 suggested that Vince Dooley was going to outperform Doug Dickey so dramatically thereafter, yet that’s exactly what happened. There’s no particular reason to believe it can’t (or won’t) happen again.
Go 'Dawgs!
Look...
I can’t speak for what Dickey did at UT, but he left UF a mess. Whatever he inherited from Ray Graves disintegrated and Dickey was not good enough to maintain what organization there was or else to give it new vitality. When Pell got to Gainesville, there was literally nothing to support a good team except a collection of a few talented individuals with no concept of “team”. That is indisputable, too. Pell in fact had to wipe the slate clean and go all “Junction Boys” on the 1979 UF team, conditions at UF were so bad.
There was nothing inexplicable about the shift toward UGA in the rivalry with UF. There is no mysical force guiding the rivalry and mandating 19 year cycles. Give yourselves credit. Dooley did what he needed to do to create sustained success. Dickey did not (or could not under the conditions of the time—Pell had to cheat, remember) and Florida paid the price.
O.K. . . .
. . . but what happened?
It is a fact that Vince Dooley was markedly more successful against Florida after 1970. What changed? I know of no staff shakeups, scheme adjustments, recruiting coups, etc., that occurred between 1970 and 1971 that explain it. As far as I can tell, Vince Dooley football was the same in 1971 as it had been in 1970. I agree that he “did what he needed to do to create sustained success,” but why did it work against Florida after 1970 and not before?
Likewise, why couldn’t Doug Dickey win “under the conditions of the time”? He managed to win quite regularly at Tennessee, and he apparently did so cleanly. (The N.C.A.A. investigated him after he left Knoxville for Gainesville and turned up nothing against him.) I know of no basis for believing Ray Graves cheated, but he was successful, too. What happened after Doug Dickey’s first season in Gainesville that made a good coach taking over a good program experience such a singular lack of success against a rival his team had owned since his days as a player?
Put another way, if it can’t be explained any other way, why is my 19-year hypothesis so unreasonable?
Go 'Dawgs!
Those are good questions...
I can’t answer them, being too young at the time. I just have the results and some anecdotes from the time. Dickey, for whatever reason, was effective at UT. He was mediocre at UF and left the program in disarray. Graves, for whatever reason, built a reasonably consistently successful program at UF and went out a winner. Was UF strong organizationally when he retired, I don’t know. But because of that success in the 1960s, I’ve read from accounts of that time that expectations were very high that Dickey would take them to the next level. Dickey’s teams certainly had the talent (he inherited the “Super Sophs” who went 9-1-1 under Graves). Epic FAIL happened instead.
My guess, which unfortunately must remain speculative since we can’t test it, is that Dickey was able enough to string a few strong years together (like a lot of coaches), but not good enough to create the organization he enjoyed at UT to repeat the success elsewhere or to keep the pressure on against a UGA that could reach the heights of true excellence. There are a couple of reasons that suggest themselves. Perhaps he wasn’t up to the task. Perhaps UT at that time was organizationally strong enough to make up for his deficiencies. Or perhaps UF wouldn’t let him (thus my allusion to conditions of the time—basically the Auburn situation for the past several decades, put differently). UF in the Dooley years was simply not the caliber team that UGA was, and I would speculate that UGA’s facilities weren’t dilapidated, as UF’s were in 1979. All that points to a differential in organizational power.
I don't believe he's saying . . .
there’s a “mystical force” guiding things in this rivalry. I think he’s saying that there are very concrete things and they have a way of flipping every so often in ways that we don’t anticipate.
Well
I dig the enthusiasm.
May the wings of liberty never lose a feather
I'm glad someone around here is optimistic...
…because I’m not. I fully understand the argument that Kyle is making; however if that proverbial switch is to be flipped then one or many things needs to change. I thought that with the win last year the work had been done. Winning the game in the fashion we did led me to believe that this rivalry was going to be just that, a rivalry again. Not us beating Florida 16 out of 19 tries, but at the very least going 10-10 or 12-8 over a twenty year span. If the debacle which occurred on the banks of the St. Johns last weekend is any indication, then nothing has changed. What happened in 2007 is an anomaly in my eyes and I hesitate to alter my opinion until we begin to win football gameS against the Gators.
To borrow an oft-used cliche, time will tell whether your prediction bears some fruit. I know that I, for one, hope that it happens sooner rather than later.
And Texan_Dawg you isolate . . .
one of the difficult aspects of the King Hypothesis. Like so many historical trends, if it occurrs, it won’t be evident until it is well underway. Heck, maybe last year was the beginning of the trend and this year was an anomaly rather than the other way around. We probably won’t know until 2015 or so.
And as DavetheDawg noted, this rivalry is back. If you spend any significant time around the Gator faithful, you notice that they took way more delight in this victory than they would have if it had been a foregone conclusion. Gator Nation is enjoying this victory precisely because it was an unexpected blowout. They may have thought they’d win going in, but there were doubts there. That is a significant difference from the Donnan years or even the first half of Coach Richt’s tenure.
Every single year...
… I have doubts going into the Georgia game. It is never a foregone conclusion to Gator Nation that we will win. Do we expect to win, yes. Are we free of doubts, no. And that will never change. It’s a rivalry game. It’s the nature of the beast.
And yes, the rivalry is definitely back. Personally speaking, I am pleased that the “Incident” occurred in ‘07. It enraged the fanbase and players, and I am certain it contributed in large part to the 49-10 outcome of this year. I’m still pissed about it, even now, and I expect our players and coaches will be in 2009 and 2010 as well. We’ll be running that tape loop for years to come.
Urban Meyer doesn’t get pissed easily, but the “Incident” ranked up there with some of the worst behavior he’s seen in his career. He won’t forget it, just like Spurrier never forgot Dooley’s center kicking that field goal. It is seared into this rivalry, and it’s of far greater benefit to the Gators than Georgia.
Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com
The celebration is over
It won the game for Georgia in 2007 and lost the game for Georgia in 2008.
It’s part of the game’s lore, but it has no more relevance heading into 2009 than the infamous flea-flicker in the final moments in 1995 had a couple or three years down the line.
If that was “some of the worst behavior” Urban Meyer has seen in his career, he needs to take a closer look at his own career. As I’ve said before, he needs to choose whether he wants to be a bully or a crybaby; he can’t be both.
Go 'Dawgs!
Trust me...
… it will live on for a long time. If not in Georgia’s hearts and minds, then in ours.
Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com
Sure . . .
. . . just like the 1995 flea-flicker lives in ours, but we’re fans who have been following this for a long time. Our motivations neither change nor matter.
College generations turn over every four years. By 2011, no one suiting up for the Gators will have been around for the celebration. It’ll be ancient history, as relevant as Bill Stanfill sacking Steve Spurrier.
If this is the motivation Urban Meyer intends to use year in and year out, expect it to backfire sooner rather than later. As with the black jerseys, the motivational magic is potent yet short-lived.
By the way . . . “Urban Meyer doesn’t get pissed easily”? I’ve never seen a man who looked so perpetually outraged. He reminds me of the title character from the David Lynch comic strip “The Angriest Dog in the World.”
Go 'Dawgs!
Get over yourselves...
Get over the celebration Gators…It’s over, history, done. I get that we huwt wittle Urban and Timmy feewings last year, but for Pete’s sake spit out the pacifier and grow up.
Having said that, I believe that I stated before by all rights we SHOULD be 5-2 instead of 2-5 over the past 7 games. So maybe the Karmic winds have changed and we just managed to screw it up. I feel confident that CMR will make the necessary adjustments and get the team back on the right path.
The bigger question is why?
I’m on record here saying that I don’t think UGA has a 16-3 coming, but I pray they don’t have a 3-16 either. I’d say somewhere around 11-8 or 12-7 one way or the other SHOULD be about right. I say SHOULD because 2-6 for Richt’s first 8 years shouldn’t have happened either. Again, I’d say 4-4 or 5-3 is what I think we SHOULD have expected. The million dollar question is why are reasonable expectations met with such lackluster results?
Goff was clearly outmatched, and it could be argued that Donnan simply faced too steep of a climb as Spurrier had it rolling by that point. But the programs have been comparable for several years now. Both recruit top 5 to 10 classes year after year. UF is usually a little higher, but it’s certainly not a talent issue as the NFL is flooded with Bulldogs as well as Gators. I do agree with the importance of infrastructure and organization, but again, there is no reason that GA and FL should have similar results against common opponents over a 6-8 span and yet have the head to head series tilt so heavily one way.
The UGA-UF series of the the last 8 years should look a lot like the LSU-UF series and the UGA-LSU series. It doesn’t, and I think the program and our fanbase needs to take a realistic look and really question why.
I think it's because these are college athletes . . .
. . . which is why I believe this posting, while somewhat facetious, has more than merely a grain of truth to it.
Most college rivalries are streaky, much more so than most professional sports rivalries. Look at Florida-Florida State; you see long runs of dominance by one team or the other. Sometimes this occurs during periods (such as the present one) in which one team is markedly better than the other, but it also shows up during periods when both teams apparently are equal.
Particularly when you’re dealing with young amateurs rather than more seasoned professionals, emotions can play a critical role. “Momentum” is a tangible thing; it can be felt entering and leaving stadiums; it may be seen over the course of a season and over the course of a game. Nowhere is this more true than in college football.
I believe rivalries are streaky because of the psychology of sports among amateur athletes. From 1990 to 1996, Florida beat Georgia annually because the Gators were more talented and better coached, which is why only two of those seven losses by Georgia were even close. After that, though, Jim Donnan’s and Mark Richt’s recruiting, Mark Richt’s coaching, and Ron Zook’s tenure in Gainesville served to level the playing field.
Georgia still lost regularly, but the evenness of the series was evident on the scoreboard: 20-13 in 2002, 16-13 in 2003, 31-24 in 2004, 14-10 in 2005, 21-14 in 2006. Those are the sorts of scores you see between evenly matched teams.
Now take a look at the Georgia-Georgia Tech rivalry during that same period. The Bulldogs won by scores such as 19-13 in 2004, 14-7 in 2005, and 15-12 in 2006. The Red and Black consistently played close games against two of their three biggest rivals, yet the ’Dawgs dominated one and were dominated by the other in terms of wins and losses. Why?
I believe it is because mindsets become self-fulfilling prophecies when one is dealing with amateur athletes. The wind went out of Georgia’s sails after the first field goal miss in Jacksonville last Saturday. The game remained well within reach at halftime, yet reports indicate that the locker room was listless and lifeless, as though the conclusion were foregone. The attempted on-side kick and the attempts to be overly clever with the red zone play calling were symptoms of a lack of self-confidence.
Georgia does not lack self-confidence against any other team on the schedule, and Georgia has beaten every other team on the schedule more often than not in the Mark Richt era. The Bulldogs believed they could beat Tennessee in Knoxville in 2001, so they could, and did.
I have said for years that, if we win the coin toss in Jacksonville, we should neither defer the kickoff nor choose a particular end zone to defend; rather, we should ask that the Gators put on Tennessee uniforms. If they did that, we’d beat them half the time. The same would hold true for Georgia Tech if they could get the Bulldogs to wear Clemson’s uniforms.
I don’t think there’s anything inherently magical about the 19-year cycles in the rivalry (although you have to admit that it’s a little creepy how reliable the swings have been), but, if the players for both sides believed the 19-year cycles were inevitable, they would become inevitable.
Such is the importance of the difference between stepping onto the field hoping to win and stepping onto the field knowing you’ll win. I mean no disrespect to Urban Meyer, who is an outstanding coach, or to the Gator players, who are talented athletes, when I say that this one factor, more than any other, has made the difference in Jacksonville more often than not.
Well, that, and the way the open dates have fallen, but that’s a separate conversation.
Go 'Dawgs!
My 2 cents
I didn’t read all the comments (sorry), but GP mentions florida’s streak against their rivals, but he failed to mention that they have had trouble with lesser teams that aren’t rivals. Certainly, if Ole Miss can beat the gators, then eventually the Dogs and other teams will also.
Finally, I think a large part of Urban’s success has to do with what is going on instate. FSU and Miami have been in a down cycle for a few years, leaving Florida with the ability to seized and control that market. Once another one of the Florida teams bounces back, florida should have a little harder road to travel.
We are jinxed...
… by teams from Mississippi. The worse they are, the better chance we have of losing to them. It is bizarre in the extreme. No one can explain it.
Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com
One possible (partial) explanation . . .
. . . is that more emotional or intense coaches are great at training a laser-like focus on big games, while more even-keeled managerial types specialize in maintaining equilibrium over an entire season.
When matters are viewed that way, it is easier to understand why an emotional Pete Carroll or an intense Urban Meyer is virtually unbeatable in a big game that has been circled on the calendar for months yet more likely to lose to an unranked opponent like Stanford or South Carolina, Oregon State or Ole Miss. You can’t be “up” or fully focused for every game, so the lesser teams on the schedule have a better shot at jumping up and biting them.
On the other hand, a more stoic, emotionally even coach like a Vince Dooley or a Mark Richt will keep his team from getting either too high or too low, with the result that their teams sometimes “play down” to the level of the opposition yet beat every team they’re supposed to beat, but they split many of the tougher games on the schedule, winning their share of the toss-ups while losing their share, as well, because they seldom hit the emotional highs. The negative side effect of this is what Senator Blutarsky has pointed out: Georgia sometimes seems to take entire halves of football off emotionally, oftentimes with disastrous results.
Mark Richt is trying to transition into a more emotional leader, but the results thus far are mixed, as evidenced by the last two seasons’ home game blackouts.
That isn’t a complete explanation, of course, but it is a trend I have observed as a general (though not universal) rule.
Go 'Dawgs!
The unnamed P word
In attempting to explain losses that should be wins and vice-versa, you forgot about psychology. Why does Georgia seem to lose to seemingly inferior Florida teams? Why does Florida choke against a western SEC team on a regular basis? Why does Georgia Tech figure out new and amazing ways to lose to Georgia? We can argue about the “regression towards the mean”, who’s coach is better, blah-blah-blah. In sports, psychology can have a lasting effect that lingers year after year.
P word revisited
My point regarding psychology is in regard to a year to year expectation, not a short term emotional response to the coach or coaching style. There is much more to the P word than that. Also, unnamed must have a new definition, since it was not mentioned in your earlier response.
No, I'm working with the plain ol' regular English definition here
In the response linked to above, I wrote: “I believe rivalries are streaky because of the psychology of sports among amateur athletes.”
The part where the word “psychology” was named was the part where I used the word “psychology,” as in: “I believe rivalries are streaky because of the psychology of sports among amateur athletes” (emphasis added).
As evidenced by the wording and context of that sentence, I was writing about “year to year expectation, not a short term emotional response to the coach or coaching style.” Specifically, I was describing how, after several years of actual on-field domination by the Gators (1990-1996), Georgia started losing to Florida due to the psychological expectation of defeat, as evidenced by the string of close losses in the early 21st century.
Clearly, this was not a reference to “a short term emotional response to the coach or coaching style,” since it encompassed a period of almost 20 years’ duration and involved three different coaches on each side of the rivalry.
I also cited the Georgia-Georgia Tech series as an example of the same phenomenon. The Yellow Jackets haven’t beaten the Bulldogs without blown officiating calls and/or fielding multiple academically ineligible athletes since at least 1990, but several recent games between the two have been close, suggesting that mental miscues (particularly by the likes of Reggie Ball) have had an impact.
I think we’re saying the same thing. I just pointed out to you that I said it first. If you’re being an obtuse smart-aleck on purpose, maybe “psychology” isn’t the only P word that applies here.
Go 'Dawgs!
Much ado over nothing
All this hand-wringing and statistical data. Isn’t it possible that each year, two teams meet in Jacksonville, and that the one wearing orange and blue uniforms tends to be better on a regular basis?
It just doesn’t seem like a difficult thing to understand, to me. Florida is simply better and has been better for quite some time. I say that not to antagonize; I think the record reflects this pretty clearly.
Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com
The problem is that this isn't true
It was true in the early ‘90s. It hasn’t been true since.
The two teams are approximately equally talented and approximately equally well coached. Even in cases in which Georgia was demonstrably better coached overall (e.g., 2002 and 2003), the Gators still won.
It isn’t a case of Florida dominating, say, Kentucky, where the talent and coaching disparities always have been evident and significant. Mark Richt’s and Urban Meyer’s records show that they both are outstanding coaches. The N.F.L. futures regularly awaiting Georgia and Florida players show that both teams are loaded with talent.
Even if the Gators are given a slight edge in those categories (which, in fairness, they reasonably might), the disparity isn’t remotely significant enough to produce the records that have been produced. If we compare results other than against each other, we find that the programs are, at worst, comparable. A 9-7 or even 10-6 Florida advantage over 16 years would be explicable; 16-3 the last 19 years is anomalous to the point of being baffling.
Go 'Dawgs!

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